Can we point out to how bad it is that SE bends the knee to chan brigades?

[QT_Melon]

SE historically haven't gone after streamers for ToS violations relating specifically to addon and mod usage. This is an indisputable fact. Feel free to prove me wrong on this one.

Are you brand new?

No, Becuase again you're playing like you're new. Even Yoshi said in his live letter that it's 2 Separate issues. Go back and watch it.
Whether or not Arthars was notably banned for the harassment, still doesn't mean that the add on penalty for using a third party tool wasn't another issue.

Yoshi has said time and time again "don't get caught"

Historically doesn't mean a thing, when the phrase is basically telling you it was gonna happen sooner or later. Which again there's NOTHING in TOS that says streamers are the exception. Twitch also has a clause if you break terms of service on another game you can also get banned on Twitch itself.

So, don't get caught or people think you acting like you brand new.

It doesn't matter to me historically. Because I STILL know it was basically an eventuality that it was going to happen.

Sorry man, I just ain't that new.

[QT_Melon]

Square hasn't gone on a banning spree before. Are you brand new?

How many players since this have actually been banned?

A Banning spree means A LOT of players. We know of notably a few, because they're streamers. So are mass amounts of players right now are being banned or not?

People have been banned routinely lesser known and non streamers for use of third party tools. More notable ones usually dealt with harassment.

So are you able to provide the math or are you brand new?

[Sebazy]

No, Becuase again you're playing like you're new. Even Yoshi said in his live letter that it's 2 Separate issues. Go back and watch it.
Whether or not Arthars was notably banned for the harassment, still doesn't mean that the add on penalty for using a third party tool wasn't another issue.

Yoshi has said time and time again "don't get caught"

Historically doesn't mean a thing, when the phrase is basically telling you it was gonna happen sooner or later. Which again there's NOTHING in TOS that says streamers are the exception. Twitch also has a clause if you break terms of service on another game you can also get banned on Twitch itself.

So, don't get caught or people think you acting like you brand new.

It doesn't matter to me historically. Because I STILL know it was basically an eventuality that it was going to happen.

Sorry man, I just ain't that new.

Then riddle me this:

Why hasn't Pyromancer been banned?

He's ticked all the boxes the other streamers such as Bagelgoose have. Mentions of intent to mass report him, addons clearly visible on stream at times, even the slander angle is arguably there with his more recent outburst.

Could it be that someone at SE realised that mindlessly enforcing the ToS over stupid things at the behest of raging forum kiddies is a bad idea?

[Nav_Fae]

I honestly don't care about the witch hunt problem because if streamers used common sense and didn't stream themselves breaking the rules, there wouldn't be a witch hunt in the first place. To fix the witch hunt issue is to address the streamer issue. Let's stop acting like the people reporting are the ones breaking the rules.

That said the witch hunts ARE bad and awful. I'm just saying that I can't really emphasize with people who get hunted for breaking the rules.

I'm not going to pretend the problem is on the reporters and the streamers are harmless. They are influencers. And they are advertising and influencing the use of third party tools. Both sides are in the wrong.

[QT_Melon]

Then riddle me this:

Why hasn't Pyromancer been banned?

He's ticked all the boxes the other streamers such as Bagelgoose have. Mentions of intent to mass report him, addons clearly visible on stream at times, even the slander angle is arguably there with his more recent outburst.

Could it be that someone at SE realised that mindlessly enforcing the ToS over stupid things at the behest of raging forum kiddies is a bad idea?

Well doesn't that actually DISPROVE the whole "Chans are causing these bans to happen" - because it could be argued one way or the other. Who is this "SOMEONE" that person runs the whole, who and who doesn't get banned? Are there mass bans or not. Two of you are arguing about the same things, but aren't even on one side of it, it's just cherry picking what suits you.

It doesn't disprove any of my point. It's that they ask you not to get caught because if you do force their hand. Yes they can ban you. It doesn't matter whether or not a person over here got banned, another person didn't. What did matter in all causes if the person really did get caught where they could ban you.

Like the video said, don't get caught up on the futile report war. "This guy didn't get banned, but this guy did".

Just don't get caught.

See, ain't new here.

[Sebazy]

Well doesn't that actually DISPROVE the whole "Chans are causing these bans to happen" - because it could be argued one way or the other. Who is this "SOMEONE" that person runs the whole, who and who doesn't get banned? Are there mass bans or not. Two of you are arguing about the same things, but aren't even on one side of it, it's just cherry picking what suits you.

It doesn't disprove any of my point. It's that they ask you not to get caught because if you do force their hand. Yes they can ban you. It doesn't matter whether or not a person over here got banned, another person didn't. What did matter in all causes if the person really did get caught where they could ban you.

Like the video said, don't get caught up on the futile report war. "This guy didn't get banned, but this guy did".

Just don't get caught.

See, ain't new here.

What?

Try replacing some of the edgy toxicity in your posts with some actual substance.

No ones disputing the SE's official stance of don't get caught. But trying to suggest that 'getting caught' will somehow force their hand is absolutely laughable.

Again, Pyromancer has quite clearly 'been caught.

Again I ask, why hasn't he been banned yet?

[Lyth]

I think Yoshi-p has made some very clear and fair statements about third-party tool use in general. A lot of it is just common sense. And while I wish that there was a means for fights to give players some (optional) tailored feedback on what to work on next and how to progressively improve after a pull or clear (i.e. next pull, try to improve your DoT uptime), I understand why this remains a grey area out of necessity. The silver lining of unfortunate situations like this is that you get a flurry of incoming feedback to the devs on what UI features and improvements are sorely needed, so hopefully something good comes out of these discussions.

I do think that the ToS's prohibited behaviors section ought to be updated with more of a focus on online harassment behaviors including brigading, especially as it applies to forum conduct. I think it's worthwhile raising a question around that at the next Q+A, because that kind of behavior is really worrying and it's important that players can feel safe so that they can enjoy the game.

[QT_Melon]

What?

Try replacing some of the edgy toxicity in your posts with some actual substance.

No ones disputing the SE's official stance of don't get caught. But trying to suggest that 'getting caught' will somehow force their hand is absolutely laughable.

Again, Pyromancer has quite clearly 'been caught.

Again I ask, why hasn't he been banned yet?

Ahh okay. So it's OKAY for you to be edgy and snarky and no one else. Got it. And please don't go about this "Well I was only responding to YOUR response" because you've been doing it in this thread to quite a few

The simple answer as to why Pyromancer ISN'T banned is because I don't know. I am not coming on this thread assuming the reasons. Whether or not he SHOULD be banned is a different issue. So if a hammer comes down, then we know why.

There's many others who HAVEN'T been banned, but I don't know why. I didn't decide to take informal data as fact. I do know tho AS fact people have been banned for third party tools. The streaming bans were probably the most public. I remember playing early on in my days where there were a group of people fighting Levi ex. I was not that experienced at that time knowing about these parsers one of the party members asked about the numbers, and he posted them. Didn't say anything about being bad or people being bad. Just a post of numbers. Didn't see that player for a while and when asked it turned out from his other friends he was banned because SOMEONE else in the party didn't appreciate numbers being posted.

Historically streamers have been very much hands off, but then people as you posted the Arthar's incident and that was also the time the TOS was updated to include streams. People were concerned and honestly should have taken it as a hint to just be more discreet, because I do recall the same thing Yoshi had been saying came up again.

It honestly in the end doesn't matter if EVERYONE was banned, or SOME was banned.

The point is you CAN. Don't get caught is pretty obvious. Public or someone else can see if regardless if it was in stream or in game. You Joe Gunbreaker, or Big Name Streamer. It can happen.

Do your best common sense to ensure that it DOESN'T.

As an aside, my annoyance is more of this trying to blame others when it essentially comes down to we as the player if we are not discreet. It's not that I DON'T appreciate people using the tools to figure out rotations and stuff, but we still have to be careful about how we post that information. I think add ons have their place, but at the same time. We're still guests leasing "the game hotel" if they don't want us purring our feet up on the community couch. I should respect those rules even if I do a 3 hour pampering maintenance of my feet each day making sure my nails are clean and skin properly moisturized and at least make sure they don't catch me doing it

[Sebazy]

Ahh okay. So it's OKAY for you to be edgy and snarky and no one else. Got it.

I make the effort to back up my edgy comments with facts. If I don't have anything to add, I do everyone a favour and hold my trap. It's a neat talent.

The simple answer as to why Pyromancer ISN'T banned is because I don't know. I am not coming on this thread assuming the reasons. Whether or not he SHOULD be banned is a different issue. So if a hammer comes down, then we know why.

There's a lot of things we don't know with this game. That's where discussion forums come in. We discuss ideas, theories whilst trying to dodge the latest Titanmen post.

Look at it from this perspective:

What did SE achieve by banning Bagelgoose in the manner they did? The answer is pretty clearly nothing. His and Hiroro's bans were always going to cause drama and the resulting fallout was always going to be the biggest advertisement for addon usage ever. SE are not stupid, this wasn't some decision taken by the top brass to make a show of some streamers as there are a multitude of ways this could have been done without causing anything like the same level of fallout in the community.

This wasn't even a ban wave as such, as far as I'm aware it was specifically two streamers. Pyromancer was seemingly targeted as well but it seems to have fallen short there.

As an aside, my annoyance is more of this trying to blame others when it essentially comes down to we as the player if we are not discreet.

I'm not trying to pass the buck. Rather my point is that this sordid mess highlights the manner in how ineptly and inconsistently SE handles reports and indeed cheating as a whole.

There are countless examples across these forums, reddit and twitter of people getting frustrated over examples of absurdly blatant bots, cheating and whatever else you can imagine. The end result has *always* been the same. At best nothing ever happened to the cheater and at worst, the person doing the reporting crossed a line somewhere and actually got themselves a ban or warning over it. These are generally relating actually impactful cheating as well. 24/7 gathering bots, market board manipulation, pvp cheating, eureka bots etc. Getting anything done about these sorts of things is akin to pulling teeth with a door. Apparently the solution is to pitch a fit in 5ch and mobilise the pitchforks.

That's just rubbish.

[DPZ2]

this wasn't some decision taken by the top brass to make a show of some streamers as there are a multitude of ways this could have been done without causing anything like the same level of fallout in the community.
...
Apparently the solution is to pitch a fit in 5ch and mobilise the pitchforks.

Did you read the posts on 5chan yourself? Or do you receive information filtered by someone with an [un/announced] agenda?

Would you please give some examples of obvious "ways this could have been done without causing anything like the same level of fallout in the community" that would have the same impact on those who were banned? This one cannot make a reasonable answer to that question, and hopes for enlightenment.