In light of the recent discussions about 3rd party tools I have a bold suggestion

[Deedlit]

No thanks,

It will still reinforce meta on the wrong hands & ultimately become a norm; its what happened to WoW & not many were happy about it,

Parse shouldn’t be a thing at all

Ah, yes. Remove the combat log. That will go great.

[Kewitt]

Someone I raided with used act and it was interest to see my log I fixed up how I was playing. Got better numbers each week till I hit my ceiling. But I like the idea of being able to log in and see my numbers but I can under stand why many wouldn't.

[anhaato]

TL;DR: Just because you don't find the situation as poor, this does not mean that the situation is in fact not poor. Furthermore, if you think addons are only utilized within the raiding and parse logging facets then you're just as clueless as everyone else as to what addons can and cannot do.

Oh, spare me. You don’t think I know about shit like Anamnesis, Gshade, Textools, among others? You don’t think I was there to witness that early aoe display addon? Guess what, I still don’t give a shit. I don’t disagree with Square for not acknowledging a run that used a cheat like that, but I also don’t really care that they used it. When talking about “uneven footing” everyone seems to forget that these players are still good even without these tools. Cactbot gets filled out with callouts by people who figured them out on their own. And simply knowing what to do is not the same as actually doing it. Was it unfair that Rich Campbell got hard carried by 7 ultimate raiders for his clears? Maybe, but thinking that doesn’t take those ultimate weapons out of his inventory. Wanna put yourself on the same footing as pc players who use addons? Have one of them be a shotcaller for raid. Have one of them run ACT for each clear. Boom, even footing. And once again you claim the situation is “poor” but don’t say how in any real capacity, so forgive me if I’m no longer listening.

[Kaurhz]

Oh, spare me. You don’t think I know about shit like Anamnesis, Gshade, Textools, among others? You don’t think I was there to witness that early aoe display addon? Guess what, I still don’t give a shit. I don’t disagree with Square for not acknowledging a run that used a cheat like that, but I also don’t really care that they used it. When talking about “uneven footing” everyone seems to forget that these players are still good even without these tools. Cactbot gets filled out with callouts by people who figured them out on their own. And simply knowing what to do is not the same as actually doing it. Was it unfair that Rich Campbell got hard carried by 7 ultimate raiders for his clears? Maybe, but thinking that doesn’t take those ultimate weapons out of his inventory. Wanna put yourself on the same footing as pc players who use addons? Have one of them be a shotcaller for raid. Have one of them run ACT for each clear. Boom, even footing. And once again you claim the situation is “poor” but don’t say how in any real capacity, so forgive me if I’m no longer listening.

Once again you show how limited your understanding is of what I was even discussing. Why not re-read my message again. I specified that you're as clueless as to how powerful addons can be, making reference to those contained within the tool on your original post. The point is that the tool referenced in your post has applications that fall outside of the realm of raiding. Stop being so one-dimensional. I'm not discussing other tools, I'm discussing the addons in the particular tool you've mentioned.

Like I said in my original post, don't expect people to hold the self-same mindset as your apathetic self because you simply don't care about cheating. Do I personally care, not really? But stop throwing your toys out of the pram because people aren't equally as apathetic in the matter.

As I said in the original post this depends on the level that tools and addons therein grow to, equally the developer's response to said tools and whether these tools will be an inherent expectation for the community when the developers design an encounter. This is where issues start -- Though I suppose it is woefully obvious on the issues considering how divisive this topic is. You're right though, you aren't listening.

Furthermore, if you think that ACT and the addons therein are limited exclusively to combat (parsing and raiding), which I least of all posit from your OP, then you yourself should really steer clear of this topic in any real capacity because addons can be quite extensive in which areas of the game they cover or can be utilized.

Frankly speaking though, it's quite clear that this topic is a very much pointless discussion if you're just feigning "I don't care because I don't feel personally impacted"

[anhaato]

Don’t pretend you’re listening to me either. I keep saying time and time again, there’s no real negative impact upon this game if people decide to use addons, and instead of refuting that all you can focus on is trying to discredit my argument because I’m not discussing some niche usages of ACT that no one actually uses it for save cases that get you heavily scrutinized in the raiding community for using crutches. I still don’t think people should be witch hunted in an attempt to get them banned for that, sorry! I don’t feel personally impacted, and I see no reason why you should either.

[Kaurhz]

Don’t pretend you’re listening to me either. I keep saying time and time again, there’s no real negative impact upon this game if people decide to use addons, and instead of refuting that all you can focus on is trying to discredit my argument because I’m not discussing some niche usages of ACT that no one actually uses it for save cases that get you heavily scrutinized in the raiding community for using crutches. I still don’t think people should be witch hunted in an attempt to get them banned for that, sorry! I don’t feel personally impacted, and I see no reason why you should either.

Certain add-ons do undermine the intended difficulty of the game and trivialize the way it is meant to be played, most especially in the case of cactbot. Sure, you can lay the claim as much as you like that many players are still good with them, or can be good, but ultimately this still undermines the intended difficulty. Once again, issues will arise if such continues, regardless of your own personal feelings if there is not a line in which third-party tools cannot cross then inarguably problems will arise, where more tools and addons will cross that boundary towards cheating. Add-ons do have the potential to influence and shape how the game is designed, both with the native features eventually supported (e.g. a shield gauge on the health bar), which in itself is not bad, but when these add-ons influence the design process of fights or mechanics then regardless of how you look at it and your own personal feelings, this is a bad direction to take, most especially in a multi-platform game.

You feigning apathy to the situation and cheating does not preclude people, or yourself from following the terms of service. They strictly prohibit cheating, regardless of the add-on that is used. Furthermore, I don't really think you should be complaining about discrediting peoples' arguments when you're already attempting to do such on the basis of whether they do or do not raid, or whether cases are or aren't niche and use-case. It is a matter of following the terms of service -- A little common sense tells you what is and isn't OK to do. Do I encourage witch hunting? Nah it's a disgusting act that is akin to harassment, regardless of whether there is or isn't an infringement of the terms - But ultimately they still didn't abide by the ToS if they got banned for it.

I don’t feel personally impacted, and I see no reason why you should either.

Don't expect to be listened to if this is the crux of your argument. That said, I'm done giving this argument my time.

[SwingLifeAway]

You feigning apathy to the situation and cheating does not preclude people, or yourself from following the terms of service

Doesn't preclude anyone from criticizing the terms of service either. Cheats and QoL do not have to be simultaneously allowed. You're literally just wasting time trying to derail the conversation from anything productive.

[Kaurhz]

Doesn't preclude anyone from criticizing the terms of service either. Cheats and QoL do not have to be simultaneously allowed. You're literally just wasting time trying to derail the conversation from anything productive.

By all means, criticize the Terms of Service, they do have some vague enough components. But this thread is hardly about criticizing them versus trying to discredit peoples' arguments regarding third-party tools because they either do not care about their argument or because they do not raid or parse, or equally because some of these add-ons are niche and therefore should not be considered.

Sorry but this entire thread is essentially unconducive to productive debate.

Kind of doesn't matter though (in terms of following the ToS) as it's not enforced unless you're reported and happen to catch a GM at the right time. If people can get away with something, they will and have done so for years now (referring to people I've come into contact with over my two years in the game). We're also never going to get an official anti-cheat with the game so I don't really see a legit solution to the problem. I also don't believe the game should have anti-cheat or any kind of automated bot moderation as that usually causes more problems than it solves (I've gotten a temp ban from a game before for saying "training".)

Personally though, I don't see an issue with the majority of add-ons outside of pvp related ones and using them in terms of official races such as WF. There are way more harmless ones out there than ones that negatively impact the game.

There is no realistic or tangible solution to the problem. You either start cracking down on your terms of service and ensure that people abide by them when you take a hard stance on the matter. Or you give a list of permissible tools and add-ons which is not a feasible undertaking due to the necessity to constantly revise said list when features change of a given add-on or when new ones are released. Just isn't feasible unless you enjoy scouring the entire internet. Personally, I think it's clear enough already.

[LianaThorne]

Certain add-ons do undermine the intended difficulty of the game and trivialize the way it is meant to be played, most especially in the case of cactbot. Sure, you can lay the claim as much as you like that many players are still good with them, or can be good, but ultimately this still undermines the intended difficulty. Once again, issues will arise if such continues, regardless of your own personal feelings if there is not a line in which third-party tools cannot cross then inarguably problems will arise, where more tools and addons will cross that boundary towards cheating. Add-ons do have the potential to influence and shape how the game is designed, both with the native features eventually supported (e.g. a shield gauge on the health bar), which in itself is not bad, but when these add-ons influence the design process of fights or mechanics then regardless of how you look at it and your own personal feelings, this is a bad direction to take, most especially in a multi-platform game.

You feigning apathy to the situation and cheating does not preclude people, or yourself from following the terms of service. They strictly prohibit cheating, regardless of the add-on that is used. Furthermore, I don't really think you should be complaining about discrediting peoples' arguments when you're already attempting to do such on the basis of whether they do or do not raid. It is a matter of following the terms of service -- A little common sense tells you what is and isn't OK to do.



Don't expect to be listened to if this is the crux of your argument. That said, I'm done giving this argument my time.

Kind of doesn't matter though (in terms of following the ToS) as it's not enforced unless you're reported and happen to catch a GM at the right time. If people can get away with something, they will and have done so for years now (referring to people I've come into contact with over my two years in the game). We're also never going to get an official anti-cheat with the game so I don't really see a legit solution to the problem. I also don't believe the game should have anti-cheat or any kind of automated bot moderation as that usually causes more problems than it solves (I've gotten a temp ban from a game before for saying "training".)

Personally though, I don't see an issue with the majority of add-ons outside of pvp related ones and using them in terms of official races such as WF. There are way more harmless ones out there than ones that negatively impact the game.

[Batbrat]

Personally, I always think the arguments around ACT are silly.

Both sides as it stands currently win.
Want to use ACT? If you don't stream it, you're likely fine.
Don't like someone using ACT? Screenshot them berating you or someone else over a parse and they'll catch a ban.

Literally just snitch! It's free, fast, easy, and highly effective! Other people who use ACT will agree with you choice! Because they want to continue using it and who are the only people who keep standing in their way? The ones exactly like that person who cause trouble and give ACT users a bad name. Every time you get a bad faith ACT user slapped with a timeout, you do the entire xiv world a favor. So remember! Just snitch!