Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Shurrikhan]

That isn't entirely true. To provide everyones favorite example, WoW had during its early Days Talent trees avaiable and despite all that, you could always find someone with ease that had skilled either what was "best" or what they thought was fun in equal numbers.

True, but we're both (A) no longer in pre-2012, and (B) in XIV. One or both factors has left players here likely to bar classes/jobs/specs over much smaller performance gaps than the case for WoW then and even today.

To be clear, I'm not against the implementation of talent systems or similar customization options. I've advocated for certain form of such customization since ARR (by having core gameplay-affecting traits be cross-classable, rather than particular actions, as a quick but effective, and largely curatable and therefore more easily tuned, way to vary aesthetic and playstyle). Though, I do think it's unwise to judge modern MMO players by what "worked" --and only to highly mixed effect (hence its removal)-- the last time WoW had a full-fledged talent system (pre-MoP).

in order for Talent trees or at least, improving Healer quality in FFXIV, would be the removal of Partybuffs and self sustain Heals from MOST Jobs

I also do not see why all removing all sustain-based utility would be outright necessary just to implement talent systems. Of all the ways to improve healer gameplay, similarly, simply ripping skills out of everyone else seem a rather poor first step. There's literally nothing that removing utility from everyone else would do that couldn't be done better and more directly by just increasing encounters' damage (save, of course, for simplifying other jobs).

Seven hells, the Grammar. Also sorry for Doubleposting.

Honestly, it was plenty clear. All good.

[Shiazirah]

Healer is boring, yes. tried different ones... i dont talk about ultima content, just MSQ content from - to...

When i see a 4 man party on a boss with 70% and except the tank the rest dies... there is JUST the tank standing there, mostly Warrior (some Paladins maybe) okay... and this one tank beats the shit out of the boss from 70% until death of the Boss, i am wondering why the hell we need a healer at all.....???? maybe just to keep the DPS alive who dont have the same selfhealabilities? but is THAT all?

If Square already decide to give healers so less to heal, then please, give them at least some kind of DMG rotation of 3 spells, with 66% on 1st and 33% on 2nd spell to proc the next one in line.... would not make them OP at all....

[MintnHoney]

i am wondering why the hell we need a healer at all.....???? maybe just to keep the DPS alive who dont have the same selfhealabilities? but is THAT all?

YoshiP says "Please look forward to it."

[SieyaM]

YoshiP says "Please look forward to it."

I think it would be hard to justify a job like WHM as a DPS job wince it has always been such a heal heavy job in the past, but I guess they could work it out. As for talent trees, it is true that those only offer the illusion of choice. There will always be a build that performs better than others and that is the one players will be expected to choose. You might be able to get away with other builds in some content but anyone looking to do content that cannot be done in DF will be excluded without having the proper build, and even then in DF if some people find out you don't have the right build they will probably kick you for slowing the run down.

[MintnHoney]

I think it would be hard to justify a job like WHM as a DPS job wince it has always been such a heal heavy job in the past, but I guess they could work it out. As for talent trees, it is true that those only offer the illusion of choice. There will always be a build that performs better than others and that is the one players will be expected to choose. You might be able to get away with other builds in some content but anyone looking to do content that cannot be done in DF will be excluded without having the proper build, and even then in DF if some people find out you don't have the right build they will probably kick you for slowing the run down.

Not that my sarcasm was directed at the specific discussion about talent trees, but I think it's silly to be afraid of a scenario of player groups in every type of content not allowing for certain jobs in XIV, because the game's general difficulty doesn't really justify having to look for the greatest-most-bestest build and the team has actively taken steps to ensure that such behavior could be viewed as harassment, therefore cowing everyone into basically keeping their heads down lest the hammer come looking for the nail. I don't necessarily believe that talent trees or whatever are the best answer to our healer situation, but we really shouldn't be letting something as banal as "meta" be stopping us from trying to get better gameplay, especially because, as it stands, we already have a meta anyway and 0 out of 4 healers are specifically fun on their own merits alone.