Endwalker vs shadowbringers story, which did you enjoy more and why? (spoilers)

[Larirawiel]

Having replayed through the entire game on my new Materia character, I'm going with Shadowbringers.

We're 4ish months post EA launch and my biggest issue with EW is the timetravel bit and how it warps the story I've long been attached to. Time travel can be a fun means to explore thinsg we shouldn't have access too but it needs to either be well thought out OR just played up for wacky hijinks. EW gives us an awkward fixed time loop that makes sense when you don't think too hard about it... but the more you do the more it deflates on itself. Having a fixed start/end essentially makes a timeline where two points are drawn on and everything in between is/was an inevitability because we need/needed those 2 events to happen exactly as they do/did. All victories happened because they had to happen, all failures happened because they had to happen.

That is the reason why the devs should avoid time traveling to the past at all costs. You WILL always introduce some errors to the story. The only exception where time traveling works is, that you have as a time traveler no way to interact with the environment in the past. Beining a totaly passive observer is fine.

And there is another causal loop error:

The name "Hydaelyn" should not exist because nobody invented it. You tell Venat, that she will become Hydaelyn and Venat tells you, that she is Hydaelyn. But there is no inventor of the name.

Cheers

[TaleraRistain]

Not even for Garrus Vakarian?

Hahaha I have that

My hubby bought it for me. He knows Garrus is my man.

[Lauront]

The FFXIV subreddit tends not to focus on 'discussion' in general, but when such threads take off, posters also tend to be pretty wary of groups trying to push an agenda.

Oh, they operate some manner of reddit neighborhood watch, do they? No, the truth is they simply seem to downvote anyone who disagrees with "common wisdom" on there, and their often highly subjective views on certain topics. I do not use the site much for discussion myself but I have observed how they react to dissenting views on a range of different topics, and dogpiling views that don't fit with the norm is common there, particularly around whether people like certain aspects of the game; and this goes back far before EW. Nonetheless, it is a source of feedback for the devs, much as is the even worse (on that front) Twitter. All these sites ultimately are a minority of the playerbase - SE controls this one and set it up explicitly to facilitate player discussions on their game, as well as provide feedback on aspects of it. Dismissing it as a source of that because of alleged dogpiling is spurious, to say the least.

It's also just a larger portion of the playerbase in general, which just makes it harder for small external group to control the discourse. And that's a good thing.

Not really - the amount of people there who focus on actively discussing topics is minute by comparison to its total membership.

What I find strange is that you seem to treat 'supporting the antagonists' as you put it as being equivalent to having membership to some faction, much like Alliance vs. Horde in Warcraft storywriting.

No, the way I put it was "fans of the antagonists". It has often been framed on the forum (and beyond) as team Zodiark/Hydaelyn, and the developers themselves have gone on record stating it amounts to two conflicting perspectives. With that said, I prefer faction-driven MMOs myself, but I am fully aware this is not one, and that their approach is more one of reconciliation - it does not change my view on which characters/perspectives I like best. It's a discussion forum at the end of the day, and I am offering my views on the topic, take it or leave it.

I wasn't privy to your lore forums experience when Shadowbringers was active, but I suspect that many of those posters that you've previously feuded with have since moved on. I've encountered earlier posts of yours where you seemed genuinely interested in discussing lore as opposed to pushing an agenda, so it's unfortunate that your prior conflicts ended up pushing you towards such a tribalistic viewpoint.

I remain interested in it. I've no idea what 'agenda' you think it is I am pushing. I very much stick to lore sources where I want to discuss the lore, unlike certain individuals who prefer taking more narrative approaches, which in reality are far more conducive to agenda-pushing... if you're confusing my dissatisfaction with certain areas of the EW story, or having my own point of view on some areas of the lore as an 'agenda', that is simply a confused, if not disingenuous, way of framing it. At the end of the day, the discussion was fairly civil here until you decided to dredge up issues with posters you have an issue with...

[Tehmon]

No, the truth is they simply seem to downvote anyone who disagrees with "common wisdom" on there, and their often highly subjective views on certain topics. I do not use the site much for discussion myself but I have observed how they react to dissenting views on a range of different topics, and dogpiling views that don't fit with the norm is common there, particularly around whether people like certain aspects of the game.

So exactly like here then.

[EaraGrace]

We're 4ish months post EA launch and my biggest issue with EW is the timetravel bit and how it warps the story I've long been attached to. Time travel can be a fun means to explore thinsg we shouldn't have access too but it needs to either be well thought out OR just played up for wacky hijinks. EW gives us an awkward fixed time loop that makes sense when you don't think too hard about it... but the more you do the more it deflates on itself. Having a fixed start/end essentially makes a timeline where two points are drawn on and everything in between is/was an inevitability because we need/needed those 2 events to happen exactly as they do/did. All victories happened because they had to happen, all failures happened because they had to happen.

Venat needed to let Emet through the sundering because Emet needed be unsundered and Emet had to drag Laha and Eli along because the trio needed to get the band back together because Iggy needed to poison the 13th because the allagans needed voidsent because Graha's ancestors needed to inherit royal blood because Graha needed to be locked in the tower because the tower needed to jump to the first because we needed to go to the first to absorb Ardbert because we needed to be 9/14ths to beat Emet because we needed Emet in the lifestream to counter Eli's magic because we needed to seal Eli in the tower because when the world was ending and Zodiark was dead we needed Eli to be used as Tardis fuel to go back in time to meet Venat/Hermes/Emet/Hyth and knock that first domino down.

EW's unintentional (?) big reveal was that life has been on rails like a ride at Disneyland ...and this simultaneously sucks the accomplishment of my wol's past deeds and the fun out of any ongoing multipatch content that deals with the past because both are just falling dominoes. Nothing we do in Pandaemonium really matters and Im worried the 24 man will be equally inconsequential by taking place in the past because the preview image doesn't look like any locale we've been to :c

This is not actually the whole story. Below is a post of Venats goodbye in all four languages combined found on Twitter.



Now perhaps the translation is incorrect, but if true I think it strongly suggests she wasn’t following the script specifically.

Then there’s her other statement on “future knowledge.”



I would also point out the difficultly of such a plan. If Venat acted solely to bring about our timeline, then lots of actions don’t make much sense. Awakening the echo or giving blessings to those resisting the calamities, calamities that technically have to occur in order for her to bring about her existence, would be counterproductive.

It’s not clear cut.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Hahaha I have that

My hubby bought it for me. He knows Garrus is my man.

There is no Shepard without Vakarian. Anyone who thinks otherwise needs to be calibrated.

[kpxmanifesto]

So exactly like here then.

Damn, homeboy is pulling no punches.

[Lauront]

So exactly like here then.

There is a downvote feature on here hiding posts beyond a threshold, and eating to a user's karma to the point that they become incapable of posting if it dips too low, which newer users unfamiliar to the site's MO are more susceptible towards? News to me.

The forum has a far more transparent structure to it when it comes to discussing topics, in that 1) it doesn't disappear downvoted posts (because you simply can't downvote) and 2) doesn't hide them under threads like reddit (beyond a certain number) or Twitter with its comment nesting does. Besides, my point is simply that if we're going to dismiss the forum as a source of feedback for "dogpiling", it's rather peculiar that the devs draw on Twitter and reddit in spite of these issues for feedback, so that "exactly like here" thing doesn't really work as a retort to that. I've always found general discussion to host a pretty broad array of viewpoints, so I can't say I share your view that it's just the same here, but to each their own.

[Rulakir]

And there is another causal loop error:

The name "Hydaelyn" should not exist because nobody invented it. You tell Venat, that she will become Hydaelyn and Venat tells you, that she is Hydaelyn. But there is no inventor of the name.

Exactly. People try to say it works because it's a "stable" time loop, but it's a paradox. The worst part is it makes the WoL an accomplice to the sundering and all the consequences of it. I'm continually baffled that anyone thought this was a good idea. I can only imagine the outrage if the WoL had been in any way conducive to one of the Ascians' rejoinings, yet here we are essentially responsible for instigating something so much more egregious. I went into Elpis screaming at the screen to tell them the truth so they could save themselves only for my heart to drop to the pit of my stomach when I realized we'd just handed Venat a loaded gun.

[Kuroka]

EW gives us an awkward fixed time loop that makes sense when you don't think too hard about it... but the more you do the more it deflates on itself. Having a fixed start/end essentially makes a timeline where two points are drawn on and everything in between is/was an inevitability because we need/needed those 2 events to happen exactly as they do/did. All victories happened because they had to happen, all failures happened because they had to happen.

Well it does made sense, remembering she knew all along we would make it, she knew for example to save that small lala on val, to ignore the prayers from the first (lol) and all the other stuff. Our Victories happen not because they needed to, but because we became strong enough to master em and life to tell the tale. Its not like its "meh we could afk and some deus ex machina clears it for us".

Personally i hate her choice, I hate the moral of "suffering is needed to become stronger and enjoy life" but it does work...


Even the timeloop makes sence, she knew one future would fail and create Grahas timeline, its basically a neat ribbon. The loop was always there, there was never a "pure" timeline without our visit at elpis. Just at one side venat did as she always does till the point Graha should meddle with time, realizing he doesnt and that shes in the dead end and needs to let the calamity happen, possibly even dying on it, while in the other it happens as we witnessed and Graha changes the course of time.