Looking back at this Yoshi P statement(story spoilers)

[BrokentoothMarch]

For a game that fondles itself over its own story, much of the community seems to suffer from pretty poor reading comprehension. Though whether said fondling is deserved in the first place, admittedly...

I agree, otherwise. It doesn't need to be death, of course, but that would be the most impactful way to convey that the heroes are at the whim of the world like everyone else. Hell, I said that half-heartedly given the very real danger that it won't matter due to all the fakeouts likely desensitizing beyond caring.

The main cast has to suffer some form of trial. No, not the churlish excuse for 'despair' Alphinaud was feeling that effectively was just him reverting to HW!Alphinaud for no reason than just because convenience. It has to be a very real issue that is sure to stay with the person for a long time. Something that can fundamentally change who the person is.

However, as much as we'd like to deny it: Given all the fakeout deaths, the nothingburger possession of WoL in this expansion, and a variety of other twists that exist 'just because', I think it's time we finally realize that shock value is all this story has anymore.

I miss the days when stories had a twist that led somewhere like with Blackbosom.

[linayar]

It’s moreso realism. If a story is going to try and preach themes and relate them to real life, then they need to be somewhat accurate. Everything doesn’t always turn out okay. No one is perfect. But in the case of the story lately, the protagonists are perfect, they can do anything and everything, and they’re completely untouchable. It’s especially discouraging when they have antagonists like the ascians who are also fighting for what they believe in, but then are reduced to nothing purely due to the protagonist plot armor. According to this quote, Yoshi P even believes that it’s needed. But it seems like this community can’t really handle death, considering they still get triggered by Haurchefant references 6 years after his death.A lot of antagonists or villains are beloved, yet they arent spared from being killed off, so why should the protags be?

That's not realism. You're basically asking for wish fulfillment except from the side who don't care about the characters.

There is nothing in reality that says after a certain amount of incidents, someone in a particular group must die (or stay dead in the case of magical reality, because most of them did "die" at the end of Endwalker).

As for the Ascians, you can consider that as a bit of realism as life is not always fair. So don't be discouraged by that.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That's not realism. You're basically asking for wish fulfillment except from the side who don't care about the characters.

There is nothing in reality that says after a certain amount of incidents, someone in a particular group must die (or stay dead in the case of magical reality, because most of them did "die" at the end of Endwalker).

As for the Ascians, you can consider that as a bit of realism as life is not always fair. So don't be discouraged by that.

It is realism though, Yoshi p says it himself. In a story about war and strife, its not realistic for one side to be completely immune to consequences of war. Realism would be for both sides to suffer and face consequences.Lifr isnt always fair, things dont always go your way, this should all apply to the scions as well, no one should be exempt from it otherwise no, it isnt realistic.

[linayar]

It is realism though, Yoshi p says it himself. In a story about war and strife, its not realistic for one side to be completely immune to consequences of war. Realism would be for both sides to suffer and face consequences.Lifr isnt always fair, things dont always go your way, this should all apply to the scions as well, no one should be exempt from it otherwise no, it isnt realistic.

They are not completely immune to the consequences of war, hence their development. Dead people are just dead. Living people deal with the consequences of life, including war.

Just because Yoshida said it doesn't mean I have to agree with his point of view (at least, as far as the translation is accurate). The only thing Yoshida has control over is what happens in the story, but he likes for people to make their own interpretation and I disagree that Endwalker is not realistic just because the Scions survived.

As for his comment, I take that to mean not as a promise that someone would die, but as a disclaimer that nothing is ever guaranteed. And I like that. If they think the story calls for someone's death, then I will welcome that and judge its execution when the story is told. But until then, they can make use of the characters however they see fit and I don't see realism has anything to do with that.

[Iscah]

But it seems like this community can’t really handle death, considering they still get triggered by Haurchefant references 6 years after his death.

That doesn't have anything to do with "not being able to deal with death". It was a death that occurred in the story, that gets referenced deliberately to evoke an emotional response.

From an in-universe perspective, the characters are certainly allowed to still grieve the loss of their friend, even if it's years later.

And out-of-universe, I don't see it as failing to cope but "deliberately engaging in the roleplay of it being someone they care about". Those people are unlikely to actually be struggling to cope or even upset by the thought of it when they're not engaging with the FFXIV community.

It's like any movie. Cry at the sad thing that happens, credits roll, move on with normal life. But this isn't a two-hour movie that's over. We're still in the narrative.

Certainly on the verge of 5.3 I was all set to simultaneously cry a lot over G'raha's expected death, and appreciate it at a storytelling level, and be sad on my character's behalf at any further reminders of him. (I suppose I was already in that state pre-ShB when he did get mentioned occasionally and it was a reminder of the friend she'd made and would never see again. His departure from the plot seemed as final as death at that point.)

I still feel sad when they mention Moenbryda. I feel guilty about Wilred. I fretted for ages about Francel's emotional state in the wake of Haurchefant's death.

But of course it's all fiction, and I'm not under any delusion otherwise, just wilfully participating. I don't carry any of it into other parts of my life. But sit down in front of the game and during that time only they are real people who died and are still missed, and should not stop being missed – in my FFXIV-mind, not my everyday life.

If anything, I wonder if this roleplay-grief is helpful when someone comes up against the real kind.

[KizuyaKatogami]

They are not completely immune to the consequences of war, hence their development. Dead people are just dead. Living people deal with the consequences of life, including war.

Just because Yoshida said it doesn't mean I have to agree with his point of view (at least, as far as the translation is accurate). The only thing Yoshida has control over is what happens in the story, but he likes for people to make their own interpretation and I disagree that Endwalker is not realistic just because the Scions survived.

As for his comment, I take that to mean not as a promise that someone would die, but as a disclaimer that nothing is ever guaranteed. And I like that. If they think the story calls for someone's death, then I will welcome that and judge its execution when the story is told. But until then, they can make use of the characters however they see fit and I don't see realism has anything to do with that.

Personally i just think that if a story is going to be advertised as high stakes, there needs to be some representation of that. The fact the past 2 expansions we've faced foes far stronger than anything we've ever faced before and the main cast have come out with no scratches to even show for it is extremely jarring and unrealistic. How am i supposed to take a threat seriously if i know the main cast is immune? What am i supposed to take away from a story about suffering and sacrifice if they main cast dont have to deal with that? To just hope i get lucky and life and im the main character of a story and i dont have to suffer or deal with consequences?They have been immune for quite a long time now. They havent had nay consequences for their actions for quite a long time now. Its a literal planet ending apocalypse that one decimated the entire planet and you mean to tell me its realistic the main cast solved it without even any minor wounds? Meanwhile theyve gotten stabbed, aetherically manipulated, and wounded by far lesesr things.

That doesn't have anything to do with "not being able to deal with death". It was a death that occurred in the story, that gets referenced deliberately to evoke an emotional response.

From an in-universe perspective, the characters are certainly allowed to still grieve the loss of their friend, even if it's years later.

And out-of-universe, I don't see it as failing to cope but "deliberately engaging in the roleplay of it being someone they care about". Those people are unlikely to actually be struggling to cope or even upset by the thought of it when they're not engaging with the FFXIV community.

It's like any movie. Cry at the sad thing that happens, credits roll, move on with normal life. But this isn't a two-hour movie that's over. We're still in the narrative.

Certainly on the verge of 5.3 I was all set to simultaneously cry a lot over G'raha's expected death, and appreciate it at a storytelling level, and be sad on my character's behalf at any further reminders of him. (I suppose I was already in that state pre-ShB when he did get mentioned occasionally and it was a reminder of the friend she'd made and would never see again. His departure from the plot seemed as final as death at that point.)

I still feel sad when they mention Moenbryda. I feel guilty about Wilred. I fretted for ages about Francel's emotional state in the wake of Haurchefant's death.

But of course it's all fiction, and I'm not under any delusion otherwise, just wilfully participating. I don't carry any of it into other parts of my life. But sit down in front of the game and during that time only they are real people who died and are still missed, and should not stop being missed – in my FFXIV-mind, not my everyday life.

If anything, I wonder if this roleplay-grief is helpful when someone comes up against the real kind.

I understand that, i do, but considering that supposedly the plto to 5.3 had two endings and htey went with one where Graha survived, it leads me to believe community opinions definitely have an effect on something like that, especially when the devs look to twitter and reddit for feedback, places where character praise and obsession is ramant. As far as haurchefant goes, i guess i just find it a bit hollow that hes typically the death that gets referenced over and over in the story even 3 expansions later, when
1.) Other characters have died like papalymo or ysayle that also are worthy of mention and
2.)The fact everytime they try to bring up what we've lost, its always usually only Haurchefant, because we havent had that much death and consequences in the story, they have to constantly reference a death from 3 expansions ago lol

[linayar]

Personally i just think that if a story is going to be advertised as high stakes, there needs to be some representation of that.

That was represented directly in the Scions sacrificing themselves and indirectly with the fact that it took the cooperation of the people to help in the solution, which showed the scale of the problem and its solution.

The fact the past 2 expansions we've faced foes far stronger than anything we've ever faced before and the main cast have come out with no scratches to even show for it is extremely jarring and unrealistic. How am i supposed to take a threat seriously if i know the main cast is immune? What am i supposed to take away from a story about suffering and sacrifice if they main cast dont have to deal with that? To just hope i get lucky and life and im the main character of a story and i dont have to suffer or deal with consequences?They have been immune for quite a long time now. They havent had nay consequences for their actions for quite a long time now. Its a literal planet ending apocalypse that one decimated the entire planet and you mean to tell me its realistic the main cast solved it without even any minor wounds? Meanwhile theyve gotten stabbed, aetherically manipulated, and wounded by far lesesr things.

But you don't know that they are immune. That's the point of Yoshida's post.

And what is minor wound compared to their entire body ceasing to exist, even if temporarily? Because that's what happened near the end.

[KizuyaKatogami]

That was represented directly in the Scions sacrificing themselves and indirectly with the fact that it took the cooperation of the people to help in the solution, which showed the scale of the problem and its solution.

But you don't know that they are immune. That's the point of Yoshida's post.

And what is minor wound compared to their entire body ceasing to exist, even if temporarily? Because that's what happened near the end.

Except we're told by Yshtola before it happens that they can be brought back, so ut renders that entire plot point moot. IT's just another example of fake death flags and it becomes rather tone deaf again, when the expansion is about suffering and dealing with it, yet the scions dont have to deal with that and are brought back. What about all those people in thavnair and garlemald? They dont have the luxury of being brought back magically. Theyre gone and have to deal with actual problems and consequences.

[linayar]

Except we're told by Yshtola before it happens that they can be brought back, so ut renders that entire plot point moot.

No, it doesn't, because bringing them back carried the risk of failure of the mission. So when they sacrificed themselves, they did that knowing it could be permanent.

IT's just another example of fake death flags and it becomes rather tone deaf again, when the expansion is about suffering and dealing with it, yet the scions dont have to deal with that and are brought back. What about all those people in thavnair and garlemald? They dont have the luxury of being brought back magically. Theyre gone and have to deal with actual problems and consequences.

I think it's a fake death flag by design, because people would complain about them being brought back, so they at least told us that they could be brought back in advance.

And why are you putting the Scions up against the rest of the people? The fact that not everyone could be saved only serves the point of the stakes. It's not a competition between who will survive and who won't and the people who are gone don't have to deal with anything because they're gone.

[KizuyaKatogami]

No, it doesn't, because bringing them back carried the risk of failure of the mission. So when they sacrificed themselves, they did that knowing it could be permanent.

I think it's a fake death flag by design, because people would complain about them being brought back, so they at least told us that they could be brought back in advance.

And why are you putting the Scions up against the rest of the people? The fact that not everyone could be saved only serves the point of the stakes. It's not a competition between who will survive and who won't and the people who are gone don't have to deal with anything because they're gone.

Its pseudo stakes. Its just like when we're given the threat of turning into the light warden, or Graha disappearing, or the scions souls being at stake in ShB. These threats are constantly being raised but nothing ever comes of them. Its all again, fake death flags. Im putting the scions up against the rest of the people because they used this expansion to preach about how suffering is necessary, yet its only normal people that have to suffer, as ive stated countless times now, the scions didnt have any of that. They went on lunch dates, coffee dates,etc and didnt have to suffer through these events. They sacrificed knowing they could be brought back and they were. They didnt have to suffer for any of it, so again it makes the whole theme rather moot.The main cast is immune to any form of consequence it seems, so what am i supposed to take away from all this? Its not really that you need to experience suffering. It's that you need to get lucky i guess nd hope some deus ex machina comes to save your ass when the time comes and hope you have enough plot armor.