Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[NishaSetsuya]

I have a really nice solution for healing ; reducing all healing potency or just put the cleric stance back, so you can panic heal in low level dungeon /s

[ASkellington]

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

That falls flat when tanks and healers do not have that distinction.

WHM is only "easy" because it isn't a proactive healer (shield) and doesn't have anything else to juggle (cards).

SGE imo is an easier SCH because it doesn't have the pet ai to mess with.

SCH isn't exactly hard either.

And AST? I'm an AST main and have been since I got into HW and all through EW. There is nothing hard about it even when you factor in the cards.

Besides all that focusing directly on the healers' primary job, there is nothing HARD about how they heal either. Shield healing is rather straightforward and both SGE and SCH have easy to use regens. Is it harder for them to recover from a party mess up? Yes but not by much.

AST would be a harder healer to use if it had both Benefics remove and only had ED for its burst healing and hand to rely solely on regens. It doesn't.

And WHM...


Also, while RDM and BLM are intermediate to hard to master, their bar to entry is still easy. They have growth. SMN mains are asking for that growth as are we healers.

RDM and BLM should be the standard design of jobs across the board. They aren't hard to do their basic job: damage. But they have intricacies to make DOING DAMAGE interesting.

Now if only healers and tanks could get that.

[ForteNightshade]

It may be intentional design that certain iconic jobs are just easier to play and optimization is less important to the devs. If a new player can come in and do okay as a WHM or SMN or RPR, then the popular "entry level jobs" are performing as intended.

Put another way, and using casters as I think a pretty clear example, what if the devs' idea of "balance" is having a job for every level of skill?

I may be tempted to agree... if there were any signs of consistency with this mindset. There aren't.

Melee have been horrendously imbalanced at both Shadowbringers and Endwalker's launch. Ninja and Samurai were both woefully inferior despite both being the harder Melee to play, especially in early 5.0. Reaper, meanwhile, is among the easiest jobs in the entire game to simply pick up and play yet it stood as the strongest; so overpowered at 6.0 that it could die and still parse better than a Orange tier Machinist or Dancer.

Going to your Caster example. As ASkellington said, none of them are particularly challenging at a sub-optimal level. Black Mage has become far more inviting and easier to grasp than its older iterations. Even if that were the case, you simply can't balance jobs around difficulty because it will promote exclusion. Come the release of Dragonsong, the only thing keeping Red Mage and Summoner alive is Resurrection/Verraise. The damage difference between them and Black Mage is so massive, it'd be silly not prioritizing a Black Mage player over the other Casters—assuming a comparable enough skill level. Machinist doesn't have such luxury and basically needs Jesus come 6.1 or it will rot. The imbalance between it, Bard and Dancer is just too significant.

Bringing this back around to healers. White Mage doesn't even excel at being the easiest healer to play. Sage is comparably easy at a base level but has far better versatility. At this moment, White Mage absolutely nothing it excels at in any noteworthy way.

[SeverianLyonesse]

That falls flat when tanks and healers do not have that distinction.

WHM is only "easy" because it isn't a proactive healer (shield) and doesn't have anything else to juggle (cards).

SGE imo is an easier SCH because it doesn't have the pet ai to mess with.

SCH isn't exactly hard either.

And AST? I'm an AST main and have been since I got into HW and all through EW. There is nothing hard about it even when you factor in the cards.

Just because they aren't hard for you doesn't mean the average noob might have a more difficult time juggling cards/faeries/DPS than they might have with a more straightforward job like WHM. People who find *any* job easy in this game are probably not the target audience being designed for...for every one of you, there are five casuals who SE is trying to rope in with a very low accessibility threshold.

And just because the distinction is different across healers or tanks as opposed to casters or melee, does not obviate the possibility of an intent for *some* skill-based stratification of jobs. Again, I point toward the fact that WHM seems pretty clearly designed to be easier than any of the other healer jobs, and also happens to be an entry point for a lot of healers because of the iconicity of the job.

Also, while RDM and BLM are intermediate to hard to master, their bar to entry is still easy. They have growth. SMN mains are asking for that growth as are we healers.

RDM and BLM should be the standard design of jobs across the board. They aren't hard to do their basic job: damage. But they have intricacies to make DOING DAMAGE interesting.

Now if only healers and tanks could get that.

Again, just because they have a low barrier of entry *to you* does not mean that they aren't still more complicated than SMN. RDM and BLM place a lot of player agency on properly ordering spells to manage doublecast/AF-UI, as well as forcing them to figure out their burst windows manually. SMN--as far as I understand the rework for not having played it--is practically on autopilot rails, where the spell choices hardly matter and the burst windows are for the most part built-in to the burst spells.

SMN feels designed to introduce players to DPS, the same way WHM feels designed to introduce players to healing. We can argue whether WHM actually does a good job of this (and I agree it doesn't seem to be accomplishing it at the moment), but I think it is a factor that needs to be accounted for in discussion of why and in what manner WHM is struggling.

[SeverianLyonesse]

I may be tempted to agree... if there were any signs of consistency with this mindset. There aren't.

I have to note that consistency doesn't necessarily obviate an intent...it just means the vision wasn't successfully realized. I still think RPR makes a pretty strong case for accessibility being at the forefront of job design.

Going to your Caster example. As ASkellington said, none of them are particularly challenging at a sub-optimal level. Black Mage has become far more inviting and easier to grasp than its older iterations. Even if that were the case, you simply can't balance jobs around difficulty because it will promote exclusion. Come the release of Dragonsong, the only thing keeping Red Mage and Summoner alive is Resurrection/Verraise. The damage difference between them and Black Mage is so massive, it'd be silly not prioritizing a Black Mage player over the other Casters—assuming a comparable enough skill level. Machinist doesn't have such luxury and basically needs Jesus come 6.1 or it will rot. The imbalance between it, Bard and Dancer is just too significant.

Again, this is assuming comparable skill level. Which I think I think may be a tad unfair to what XIV seems to be trying to do, make space for (very) casual players to enjoy the game as well. I don't even know where I fall on that and whether the disdain for bad players is warranted, but I do think it is unrealistic to pretend that XIV isn't catering to extremely casual players.

But, more to the point, I think this idea of "exclusion" is a bit misguided among the playerbase. When you compare to a WoW or GW2, job balance matters because players invest in a single job and have to entirely re-roll a character if the job they have is excluded by the meta (in theory, both games allow for speccing differently, but then we are talking players being shoehorned into a specific role they may not enjoy, so not much better). FFXIV, in theory, would not be "excluding" anyone from participating in higher tier content when they have the option to switch to any other job. The fact that XIV's balance is such that "any job can clear" is certainly quite nice for people who like a particular job fantasy and definitely helps its sub-base. But again, I pointed out that we have a *lot* of jobs to choose from--in theory, allocating a small handful of jobs to "baby's first" category would not destroy job balance and create exclusionism in a way that would totally ruin the game like it would other job-locked MMOs.

Yes, we would have some small job-specific cults that would be put out that their favorite job is no longer viable at higher levels. And we could argue how bad that may be for the game, but I don't think it's the death-knell people would paint it to be. There's a lot of nuance and interest-balancing. Like, having under-powered or easy mode jobs in a game can easily be spun as a "challenge mode" for more skilled players (oh wow, you cleared Dragonsong with WHM? Mad skills.). The idea of job balance in FFXIV is not as binary as it is in other MMOs because the job system is so flexible.

[Skiros]

The idea of job balance in FFXIV is not as binary as it is in other MMOs because the job system is so flexible.

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

[SeverianLyonesse]

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

Your arguments are impressionistic and unhelpful as always, Skiros.

[Semirhage]

But, more to the point, I think this idea of "exclusion" is a bit misguided among the playerbase. When you compare to a WoW or GW2, job balance matters because players invest in a single job and have to entirely re-roll a character if the job they have is excluded by the meta (in theory, both games allow for speccing differently, but then we are talking players being shoehorned into a specific role they may not enjoy, so not much better). FFXIV, in theory, would not be "excluding" anyone from participating in higher tier content when they have the option to switch to any other job. The fact that XIV's balance is such that "any job can clear" is certainly quite nice for people who like a particular job fantasy and definitely helps its sub-base. But again, I pointed out that we have a *lot* of jobs to choose from--in theory, allocating a small handful of jobs to "baby's first" category would not destroy job balance and create exclusionism in a way that would totally ruin the game like it would other job-locked MMOs.

I have always refused to allow Square Enix to try this on me, and I'm not about to start.

"WHM being boring and weak and stupidly designed could actually be a good thing because then someday when you're not a window-licker you could either feel proud that you cleared content on a hamstrung underpowered crayon eater Fisher Price baby-tier job or graduate to a powerful, smoothly designed, non-clunky job that actually matters"

Or...or....ooooor.....maybe, WHM could actually be good at things and have an entertaining gameplay loop and not punish you for playing skillfully and perhaps in a drug-fueled pipe dream actually be competitive in its role, instead of being literally the only job in this game that people constantly, unironically rationalize its horrible insultingly easy design as a "good thing".

Better make Monk spend all of its time spamming 111111111111 because that's good design for newbies and it's healthy to have at least one job in a role arbitrarily suck because a skill ceiling is scary and they need a playpen where improvement is forbidden. Said nobody ever.

[Laphicet]

Better make Monk spend all of its time spamming 111111111111 because that's good design for newbies and it's healthy to have at least one job in a role arbitrarily suck because a skill ceiling is scary and they need a playpen where improvement is forbidden. Said nobody ever.

People asked that about Summoner at some point, apparently, judging by the borefest that the class is at the current moment. Just spamming 1 and 2, not alternating, just changing which button you spam depending on what phase you're in with no thought given to anything.

[Ixon]

ROFL

As if FF14 doesn't have one of the strictest job system among MMOs because there's only one build, only one objective (damage, even during progression), only one relevant piece of content where balance matters (raids).

It's not like we need multiple builds per job when one character can swap and play 20 jobs ,sure it could be more interesting, but not really when the gigabrains figure out what the meta is and everyone just builds that. Yes, you need damage to kill a boss?(though I do agree the end-game healing could be required more) And of course the balance is geared towards the raid? Is an MMO not supposed to balance for it's end-game content? What do you want, balance based off PotD?