Critique of Endwalker Characters

[NanaWiloh]

Zidane's plot armor was justifiable because we spent the entire game with him as an active protagonist with a distinct personality, just as flawed as it was endearing, and one that would be impossible to make the star of a video game by today's moral standards. The same cannot be said for Y'shtola and the few and far between sassy moments she has or the fact that Thancred's story finished in Shadowbringers and is hanging out as the party appendix these days.

I see Thancred leaving us at some point. If they found a way to travel to the first again safely. No question Thancred would likely jump on the chance. There are other characters who are good fighters and infiltrators that could take his place.

[aveyond-dreams]

Sometimes the characters surviving over dying could be as simple as because the CEO or boardroom people said to keep them alive for merchandise reasons. I could fully believe that some of the cast was written to die and that some supervisor was like, "but that would hurt our merchandise sales". Sometimes, the situation for story weirdness is as simple as that. The companies are always willing to make the story janky if it makes them more money in other departments. I think we sometimes forgot that businesses such as SE will do this. Products don't usually sell as well if the character is dead. Just how marketing works.

All the Emet-Selch merch that sold on Etsy after his seemingly permanent demise in Shadowbringers directly contradicts this. People straight up have paintings of the guy hanging in their houses. SE refusing to do any merch of him during last expansion was a hilariously bad decision as they could have easily made loads of money before and after his role in the events of Endwalker. As for all the Y'shtola merch the best way to solve that problem is to simply design a better postergirl.

See I disagree. They're just as active with distinct personalities to me so their plot armor is justified. So it seems you only have a problem with ridiculous plot armor when you don't agree with it.

Zidane = actively displayed a flirtatious personality with Garnet, bickered often with Steiner, had a lot of endearing moments with Vivi and was actually entertaining to watch interact. Had his world shattered upon revealing his true origins and made us feel sad at FFIX's ending when he stayed behind, with his return in the finale being cheered on by people because he had actually done something to earn it.

The Scions = *stoic nodding* *generic sassy Y'shtola comment* *Alphinaud rambling about his ideas* *uwu G'raha fanservice* *Urianger=I totally promise not to lie to you guys anymore!* and "This is Thancred" being his most impactful line in all of Endwalker

Forgive me if I do not see the two as equivalent.

[KizuyaKatogami]

C'mon Reks? You're gonna split hairs like that? He's playable for the prologue, a tiny portion of the game. And you mention Reks and his effect but not Rasler? The only difference there in character motivation is one is playable and the other is not.

You can't really take 13-2 and what happens there if you don't also take LR and what happens there and all...that...gets sorted out in the end with the new world. I enjoyed 13-2 as a game but I try not to think about that whole narrative too much.

Plus people complain all the time about Haurchefant and how he wasn't important enough but he offered us friendship and sanctuary when the world turned against us. He was a huge part of our motivation, but I've definitely see people complain they didn't feel connected to him or he wasn't an important enough death. Or characters like Papalymo who was a main character but people don't think he was important enough when he was an actual Scion and VERY relevant to the story of anyone that started in Gridania.

I mean we can count rasler, i don’t mind that. Either way you’re arguing semantics here. Point is, many ff games have death or some severe consequences. More than those that do not that’s for sure.Even the ones that may not have death at least have severe consequences for the world or it’s characters, that’s the point i’m getting at. In 14 however, the past two expansions have been the ones with the highest stakes and cataclysmic events yet are the ones with the least to no amount of consequences or death. Overall point is, in the ff games with deaths, those games typically had said deaths be meaningful and equate to stronger development in some way. I don’t see why 14 can’t do the same. Most peoples defense is you don’t need death to drive a story forward, which while that may be true, you can’t drive a story’s darker moments or themes forward without a form of consequence, and that’s what has been severely lacking these past expansions. Just like too much death isn’t good for a story, neither is plot armor or massive plot holes created just to keep characters alive.

[VirusOnline]

See another take I disagree with is that the main cast had to die for the story to be interesting or impactful. Personally I wouldn't have enjoyed any of the deaths in that spoiler tag at all, and losing those characters in those ways more than likely would have tanked my own enjoyment of the story.

Death isn't the be all end all negative consequence and I don't think it's at all necessary to tell a good story. I mean don't get me wrong, I don't think Endwalker was spectacular or anything, but I still enjoyed it for what it was. But then I also don't mind a cheesy cliche if it's entertaining, and for me the UT story was.

Fair.
Death doesn't, but let's be honest here. That this large group of persons are able to withstand the most dangerous battles and wars, powerful entities/gods, a .0000000001% survival chance where aether supposedly does not exist, etc.
We're bordering on immortals here haha

Even Goku gotta die uh multiple times ya know but the dragon balls actually has lore as to why people can be reincarnated so yee

edit: i also did like ut and cried there, but my cheap comment is more of an after analysis rather than in the moment

[Rilifane]

Y'shtola insulting Magnai felt out of character to me given her insistence on respecting the culture and customs of the aggressive Beast Tribes back in the days of ARR. Though the Scions venturing into territory that is not theirs to claim and acting as if they own the place and know what is best is, sadly, nothing new.

For all the screeching and drooling they indulged in over Garlean conscription they sure did overlook Hien effectively tricking the Xaela into fighting a war that did not concern them. Then again, the protagonists in this game have never had any fixed moral compass or stable 'themes' I suppose...

That's one of the many things that made Hien an interesting character for me: he was willing to go for morally questionable methods and not just that, he was able to sell it in a way that nobody thought less of him for doing it. He didn't side with the Mol out of kindness of his heart or anything, it was all calculated so he (or the WoL) could take a clear leader position and make sure the tribes fight in a war not their own. As cute as it was seeing him chase sheeps, it was also just a tool to acquire information that he could use against the tribes he's planning to enlist.
Also, flooding Doma Castle, drowing most of the soldiers their so they die a gruesome death and are out of his hair? Not honorable considering the trio are all warriors that would want to die on the battlefield if they have to.
He had an honorable side, a boyish side but he also definitely had a very cold, calculating side and the mix of it made it interesting.
Why force people into doing something when you can charm them into doing it?

The bit about the character conflict can't be over-stated, IMO. Some of the most fun encounters I had in older RPGs, like Baldur's Gate 2, was trying to manage the NPC disagreements, which would sometimes result in them fighting to the death or taking your leave of the party. These aren't the only ways to resolve such conflicts, and it's obviously not feasible to the same extent in an MMO like this one, but it helped highlight the strength of their convictions and differences in these. The closest they came in FF14 is indeed Estinien and Ysayle and, although he never joined the party, Emet-Selch following your party around on the First. This helped show more facets of the characters and thus avoided reducing them to mere sounding boards for certain viewpoints.

The party dynamic in BG2 (and similiar games like Divinity series) made them really memorable when it came to characters. Even if both characters were generally good, like Jaheira and Anomen... oh boy, could they argue. It wasn't just harmless banter, it was a very real conflict over how to solve certain quests and which approach to take with something and their personalities and ideals clashed ina very believable way.
Just because the Scions are not real party members shouldn't exclude them from having real conflicts. They're still people and not some picture perfect good guys on moral high ground. Scion or not, everyone has personal bonds, affiliations and priorities. It's just not believable that they woke up one morning years ago and said "Yup, world peace above all, no personal goals from me!".

[Theodric]

That's one of the many things that made Hien an interesting character for me: he was willing to go for morally questionable methods and not just that, he was able to sell it in a way that nobody thought less of him for doing it. He didn't side with the Mol out of kindness of his heart or anything, it was all calculated so he (or the WoL) could take a clear leader position and make sure the tribes fight in a war not their own. As cute as it was seeing him chase sheeps, it was also just a tool to acquire information that he could use against the tribes he's planning to enlist.
Also, flooding Doma Castle, drowing most of the soldiers their so they die a gruesome death and are out of his hair? Not honorable considering the trio are all warriors that would want to die on the battlefield if they have to.
He had an honorable side, a boyish side but he also definitely had a very cold, calculating side and the mix of it made it interesting.
Why force people into doing something when you can charm them into doing it?

Yeah, he's my favourite of the surviving leader figures in the game for those reasons. He feels flawed and properly fleshed out. He isn't perfect, nor does he pretend to be - but ultimately everything he does is for the benefit of his people first and foremost. I liked Varis for the same reasons. The Archbishop of Ishgard, too, albeit not to the same extent.

I want more characters like Hien who have their own agenda and aren't constantly at risk of being forced to change to suit the misguided ideals of Alphinaud. MMO's by their very nature are designed to appeal to a broad variety of players. It's well past time that the characters themselves reflected that when it comes to their opinions, ideals and personalities.

I am fiercely opposed to the idea that everybody has to think, feel and act a certain way be it in reality or a fictional setting. Conflict is both necessary and interesting but the game needs to cease pretending as if only one particular set of ideals are of value or acceptable. That isn't the case. Sometimes people align with one another due to shared goals. Sometimes they come in conflict with one another over their ideals. Though the game's insistence of, at every turn, pretending as if everybody has to concede and do things the way that the Scions desire is growing pretty tiresome. Certainly, if given the choice to give my character more agency he wouldn't be enforcing regime changes and would instead be eager to find a third path forward in almost every situation.

[Rilifane]

In the end, everybody does what they think is best and there is no universal "best" or even "good".
The quote "Everybody is a hero in their own story" is true. Varis thought he was doing what was best. Thordan thought he was doing what was best. The city leaders. The Scions. Sharlayan scholars.
Everyone can only act to the best of their own knowledge and belief and from their perspective, their actions were understandable and good according to their own priorities and goals. Were they good? Good according to whom? The Scions are not good according to several factions but the story bends over backwards to always make them look good and their ideals as superior and that makes them incredibly bland.
The whole story around Ysayle, Estinien and the Dragonsong War made what we did, as the WoL, questionable because we were just as guilty of killing people under false assumptions as everyone around us and we helped to shake the foundation of a whole nation in too short of a time, leading to even more conflict and deaths. We weren't liked and worshipped by everyone and that was good.
Artoirel basically wanted us dead at first for stealing his spotlight. Not excplicitely but hoping the WoL would fail when sending them out into a battle alone has a pretty clear outcome: you fail in a battle, you die. Tataru and Alphinaud were accused of heresy for sniffing around and it was quite clear that someone else asking the same questions wouldn't have been treated the same way but they were outsiders and unbelievers.
HW was riddled with the type of conflict between characters and in the story itself that made it a very compelling expansion for me and all that without the constant presence of the Scions.
I would've loved to see more of that.

[Anienai]

Winning post

I agree with every word you typed.

10/10

[Rulakir]

Imo I don't mind Gra'ha so much.
But I also didn't like how the game treated him as if I as the player thought he was the best thing ever.

This is how I feel about Haurchefant. The WoL has never reacted as dramatically to anything else in the game as his death. Not trying to say he wasn't a good character or that wasn't an emotional moment, but it's always been odd to me that my character was disproportionately torn up about him. There were also several dialog options referencing him that no other character has had and his demise keeps being rehashed, indefinitely it seems. I feel like my WoL had a love affair with him off screen that I wasn't aware about or something. :P

I love G'raha though. I sympathize with the people who don't, I would hate to have a character I disliked thrust upon me the way G'raha is. It's too bad the game doesn't have a favor system or at least allow you to pick your traveling companions, although, I know that would involve a lot of extra dialog (like the inn scene in EW).

Reminds me of when people tried to sell me Zenos as a mirror or foil to the WoL, to me he's just a boring psycho. Villains like him and Hermes need to not resurface again.

Ever since someone compared Zenos to Vegeta from DBZ I've been thinking, darn, he had possibilities! I would love a Vegeta type in game even if it's not him.

I think people will hate any main cast. Even the new 7.0 main cast will be hated. It's a battle that no TV show, movie, video game or story will ever win. It's simply the way it is.

The Golden Girls. :P Interestingly, it's because they were all so different and played well off of each other, something the Scions don't have. They've always been friends, always get along, always agree with each other (what few differences they have don't amount to much). The fact that they're all Archons or from Sharlayan like the twins doesn't help either, aside from who they were before then there's not even much diversity in their backgrounds. The main cast needs some spice.

[aveyond-dreams]

As stated by others, another factor that contributes towards the general boring nature of the scions is that every one of them save Estinien come from the same place, Sharlayan. An entire party of allegedly "learned scholars" who in stark contrast to the other Sharlayans we meet in the MSQ hardly come into any kind of conflict with each other at all. Compared to most other party compositions, the one we've been stuck with is extremely homogenous.

The twins, nerds who just graduated high school/university. Y'shtola, sassy nerd. Urianger, bullied nerd. G'raha Tia, uwu nerd. Though some are orphans, they largely seem to be unaffected and straight up don't care about the fact they have no families.

Meanwhile, on the other hand we have:

Estinien - revenge driven soldier who lost everything because of Nidhogg
Ysayle - heretic driven by faith and is unafraid to challenge her ideological enemies
Hien - a prince who lost his family and his kingdom, and leads the charge to retake it, with an army whose acquisition he single-handedly orchestrated himself
Ryne - locked in a cell most of her life, a damsel in distress who becomes her own person by her story's end
Hades - a grouch who despite his naysaying cares about the wellbeing of his inner circle
Aymeric - the bastard son of the head of state, who unlike a certain catgirl is actually capable of displaying traits such as humility! Imagine that.
Hades - his background is the most interesting of them all, a genuinely complex character who is consumed by his burning ambitions who made the most of every second he was on screen.

Compared to these characters, the scions have suffered practically nothing.