*Spoilers* Anyone feel joining Emet would have been better

[redheadturk]

Same person, same value system, same question. If you thought that you were going to be one of Emet's chosen in the Ascians' new paradise, I have a bridge to sell you.

Also, can you imagine the Ancients rocking up to Zodiark with a bunch of non-sentient sticks, plants, and rocks? 'Er, how much for that soul over there?'

Non sentient animals and plants were more likely. Specifically those that Halmarut tended to tinker with that were ensouled but not sentient and capable of motion.

[Lyth]

Keep your bridge to yourself. I wouldn't want you to go homeless.

That's an incredibly bizarre statement to make. It not only cedes the argument but it also reflects poorly on you as a person.

[redheadturk]

Let me first point out the fallacy of saying that a story’s writing is relying on contrivances, but only when it prevents your preferred direction from being taken. Pointing out that problems with the Ancients, they’re obsession with only perfection and their willingness to sacrifice whatever it would take to birth a world without fear or suffering, even eschewing morals to do so, is not contrivance. It’s a logical and thematically appropriate failing.

And forgive me, but if I’m reading you right I think you’ve missed the point of Dead Ends and the message of Ultima Thule. Etheirys will eventually die. All things will eventually die. It was that revelation that broke the Ea. The point Venat makes, the point of the Sundering and defeating Meteion, was that even with the inevitability of the end, you should fight for tomorrow. That even if only for another day, people will be able to live, find beauty in world, hear, feel, and think. And that that is worth fighting for. If the Ancients knew that there was nothing they could do to stave off the end, that no sacrifice would halt it, they would break. The Ea did, the Omicron did, the dragons did, advanced civilization after advanced civilization did. To believe that the Ancients, possessing the flaws they were, would be different for no reason other than saying they are somehow special, is foolish. Only a civilization that accepts the inevitability of suffering, that looks with both eyes at the inevitability of the end, and still can find joy and happiness, will not. And even then only for a time.



This seems arbitrary. Why wouldn’t a carnivorous plant capable of being bestowed a soul, a soul that will carry memories and experiences no less than a humans, be worthy of consideration?

No, tbh, they are not worthy of consideration in the same way feeling, thinking people are. Plants do not have the capacity for memory and feeling that humans have, and in the situation of "the plants die or humanity dies" I am sure going to give the plants the heave ho.

[EaraGrace]

No, tbh, they are not worthy of consideration in the same way feeling, thinking people are. Plants do not have the capacity for memory and feeling that humans have, and in the situation of "the plants die or humanity dies" I am sure going to give the plants the heave ho.

Being ensouled means having that capacity. If that plant is ensouled, then they do have some consideration. And we are discussing in universe. If you hold plants as having less moral consideration on Earth then that’s fine. But we’re talking of Etheirys.

[Lauront]

Let me first point out the fallacy of saying that a story’s writing is relying on contrivances, but only when it prevents your preferred direction from being taken. Pointing out that problems with the Ancients, they’re obsession with only perfection and their willingness to sacrifice whatever it would take to birth a world without fear or suffering, even eschewing morals to do so, is not contrivance. It’s a logical and thematically appropriate failing.

If you don't like the word "contrivances", go with "plot elements". The fact of the matter is that the ancients were divided over this topic, for reasons we don't exactly know, even if we do know what was animating Venat's concerns now. Hence that poster, pointing me to that cutscene is a waste of my time, because this whole topic was covered extensively in SHB through a multitude of sources and was not as simplistic as that stylised scene ultimately makes it out to be.

And forgive me, but if I’m reading you right I think you’ve missed the point of Dead Ends and the message of Ultima Thule. Etheirys will eventually die. All things will eventually die. It was that revelation that broke the Ea. The point Venat makes, the point of the Sundering and defeating Meteion, was that even with the inevitability of the end, you should fight for tomorrow. That even if only for another day, people will be able to live, find beauty in world, hear, feel, and think. And that that is worth fighting for. If the Ancients knew that there was nothing they could do to stave off the end, that no sacrifice would halt it, they would break. The Ea did, the Omicron did, the dragons did, advanced civilization after advanced civilization did.

Forgiven, because you're not right. I am aware of the point it is making. Where I diverge is leaping from what is shown in the Dead Ends to the notion that the ancients could not possibly have adjusted their ways without being sundered, if they had been given the requisite information, and not just in the form of inspirational quotes. Venat herself states that the conclusion of Hermes's report would not phase many of her people and that unlike Hermes, they'd be able to accept it. But the fact is, they were not presented with this information, which would have provided tangible proof of her concerns. At the time, they were grieving the utter devastation of their star and decimation of their population.

To believe that the Ancients, possessing the flaws they were, would be different for no reason other than saying they are somehow special, is foolish. Only a civilization that accepts the inevitability of suffering, that looks with both eyes at the inevitability of the end, and still can find joy and happiness, will not. And even then only for a time.

Give them the information in full and we'll talk. Until then we're dealing on the mere say-so that they wouldn't.

That's an incredibly bizarre statement to make. It not only cedes the argument but it also reflects poorly on you as a person.

No, your argument continues to be flawed for the reasons I outlined. Merely stating it's the same person with the same principles doesn't dislodge the problems it faces.

[Nilroreo]

It was idiotic not because I misunderstood it, but because apparently there are a number of people who completely missed what the entire story was actually about.

The entire story is about many things, including a fight for survival by any means necessary, a sentiment shared by more than just unsundered beings, but lot of people here conveniently forget this.

In the end, their civilization would have fallen to apathy and sought death as a release even and especially if they all came back.

Citation needed.

This is not conjecture or headcanon, this is what we were actually shown in Elpis. The entire notion of once your purpose has been served you "return to the star" is tantamount to saying there is nothing to live for once you've achieved whatever it is you want to achieve.

Venat, someone who has accomplished much in her life still chose to live, and nobody cared. Nowhere was it ever stated during our time in Elpis that death is mandated by law upon finishing your duty. The renewal of life via the cycle of life and death is a concept most living beings abide by, and the ancients fully acknowledge but can't readily participate in themselves due to their seemingly endless lifespans unless they do it voluntarily.

There was also a second hint on where the star was headed with Amon and Emperor Xande

Amaurot =/= Allag. Xande sought death as a release, then proceeded to open a hole in the void to engulf everyone and everything. Ancients opt into taking their own life at the end of their own personal journey cuz it is their own right to do so.

The plan to summon Zodiark is idiotic because it is a temporary solution

It was the smartest solution they had given their incredibly limited knowledge of what was causing the final days (courtesy of Venat's apprehensiveness to help of course).

"Why can't we just go back to the way things were?" That's what the Ancient who turned to Venat asked. Therein lies the problem. A problem which the only solution was to Sunder.

...The solution for a race not wanting to lay down and die was to cripple them beyond all recognition?

I am hard-pressed to think of a worse idea than Venat telling the Convocation what she knew. It would have made a bad situation infinitely worse.

Why? And use actual evidence this time.

[Lauront]

I think it should also be noted that ensouled does not necessarily equal sentient in this context. Some carnivorous plants may be ensouled, but I would certainly never believe they were sentient. lol. People, and familiars with the ability to speak and possessing of self awareness, those are sentient.

I agree, I highlighted that in my post - ensouled in this context is just at a minimum a living being, but not necessarily sentient or sapient. My point is that this spans a spectrum ranging from animal/monster/plant to familiars to sundered/similar life forms, all the way to ancient. We just aren't given any concrete information on what it was.

[Theodric]

That's an incredibly bizarre statement to make. It not only cedes the argument but it also reflects poorly on you as a person.

I disagree.

It's nowhere near as jarring as, for example, certain posters accusing people who dislike Venat as either hating women or being unable to accept female deity figures in a narrative as if liking or disliking fictional characters has any relation to one's personal integrity.

[Lauront]

As the poster aptly put it...

Gosh, I didn't realize that I had posted in the Fishing sub-forum.

[redheadturk]

Being ensouled means having that capacity. If that plant is ensouled, then they do have some consideration. And we are discussing in universe. If you hold plants as having less moral consideration on Earth then that’s fine. But we’re talking of Etheirys.

I hold them as having less moral consideration period. Again, ensouled does not necessarily mean sentient. Mankind and some particular familiars were sentient, plants are not