What's the point with that quite lackluster story in Endwalker?

[KizuyaKatogami]

It wasn't bad for humanity. The Occuria had used the Sun-Cryst to completely control Ivalician history. They crowned Dynast Kings who would do what *they* wanted and run things their way. They locked away beings like the espers who disagreed with them. Venat's actions freed humanity from Occurian control by ending the Age of Stones.

They were using Rasler to manipulate Ashe into doing what they wanted the entire game. The Occuria were the true villains.

Except they were the only thing keeping humanity from collapsing on itself and they were preventing it’s extinction. Yes they locked up the Espers because they literally led a revolt against them with Ultima at the head of it all. Yes they manipulated Ashe, because what Venat was doing would doom both sides and in the end it essentially did. Magic is slowly sucked out of the world. We see partial results of all of this in 12-2 as well. Venat’s actions caused untold suffering for the rest of humanity and the worlds existence. The “freedom” was a bit of a sham as humanity itself mostly had freedom, it was only until they would cause themselves to wipe themselves out that the occuria intervened.

[TaleraRistain]

Except they were the only thing keeping humanity from collapsing on itself and they were preventing it’s extinction. Yes they locked up the Espers because they literally led a revolt against them with Ultima at the head of it all. Yes they manipulated Ashe, because what Venat was doing would doom both sides and in the end it essentially did. Magic is slowly sucked out of the world. We see partial results of all of this in 12-2 as well. Venat’s actions caused untold suffering for the rest of humanity and the worlds existence. The “freedom” was a bit of a sham as humanity itself mostly had freedom, it was only until they would cause themselves to wipe themselves out that the occuria intervened.

Instead of letting humanity handle things itself. I dunno if you've played Mass Effect, but you just argued for the Reaper outlook of why they need to destroy civilizations before they get too technologically advanced. And they're the bad guys.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Instead of letting humanity handle things itself. I dunno if you've played Mass Effect, but you just argued for the Reaper outlook of why they need to destroy civilizations before they get too technologically advanced. And they're the bad guys.

They did let humanity handle things itself. It was only when humanity got to the point of wiping themselves out that they rightfully intervened. How is that advocating for destroying civilizations? They were preventing the self destruction of the human race lmao. Either way though, even if what you said was the case, none of that even remotely justifies what venat did. It doesnt even make it grey morality. In the end she was fulfilling her own selfish desires and takin humanity out with her. Such a queen.You're bringing in i guess a race? fFrom another series that doesnt even really compare to what we're talking about. You seem to also be ignoring that the end of the occuria ended up meaning the world turns into a dark age.One of the characters in 12-2(i believe its fran) laments that getting rid of the occuria was a mistake,and they would feel the effects of Venat's actions for a millenia.Also...what you jusr described is basically ff14 venat lmao.

[TaleraRistain]

They did let humanity handle things itself. It was only when humanity got to the point of wiping themselves out that they rightfully intervened. How is that advocating for destroying civilizations? They were preventing the self destruction of the human race lmao.

Because the whole deal with the Reapers in Mass Effect is that they were created as the solution to having the organics and the synthetics in the galaxy destroying each other. They regularly collect information about the civilizations in the galaxy and then purge it before it can reach a level where it would destroy itself. I bring them up because that's exactly what the Occuria do. They control and manipulate instead of letting humanity make its own mistakes. When you destroy the Reapers at the end of Mass Effect and destroy the relays that allow travel across the universe, yeah, there are people who are going to think that's a mistake, too. But it gives humanity a chance to rebuild on their terms, not because some far-off being decided for them. Same with humanity giving the finger to the Occuria in XII. Keep in mind the Occuria wanted Ashe to destroy Archadia and they didn't give a fig for what innocents might have been hurt by that. Instead by defying what the Occuria wanted, Archadia gains a good leader in Larsa and a solid protector in Basch, and Ashe can run her kingdom the way she chooses to. And they're at peace instead of war.

The Ancients are a lot like the Occuria. They have processes to decide what is "worthy" to live, which was one of the main things Hermes took issue with. They've set themselves up as the arbiters of what happens on the star. Except for a couple of exceptions, they won't intervene to help others. There's that one pair in Amaurot who are arguing about just that. They hold themselves aloof and disconnected and have one seat on their Convocation that does their dirty work in going out and understanding civilizations for them. And they consider that person the weirdo. The right or wrong of Venat's actions in XIV can be debated until the cows come home, but she did put the control back in mankind's hands, for better or worse.

[KizuyaKatogami]

She took control out of mankinds hands though. She sundered them and gave htem no choice in the matter. The ancients dictated the life of animals and insects Theres a very stark contrast. As for the occuria once again i repeat, they let humanity make mistakes. The only time they intervened was when mankind was in turmoil. Its a bit crazy to me that you thing thats wrong, preventing a species from killing itself. Yes the occuria wanted ashe to destroy archades because 1.It turned into a hivemind of which Venat was manipulating all of the people there and 2. It was housing incredibly dangerous tools that even show up in 12-2 and almost end the world again.Would it end a lot of lives? Yes but in the end it would be better for the world. Not really any different from Ironworks willing to sacrifice an entire timeline of peoples, millions upon millions just to bring back 1 person now is it? You're leaving out a loooot of context and trying to paint them in your own narrative when it isnt the case, and youre doing the same with the ancients. They respected life. They preformed rites for them they had funerals for them. Some express remorse for some of the familiars that are put down. Hermes wasnt the only one, he was just the only one that was a bit mental. He didnt go out and seek out help and thats on him. Its the same problem Venat has. She didnt seek out people and inform them of what was happening. Instead, she did the very thing youre bashing the occuria for, she took control of her own peoples lives and shattered them. She didnt give them the chance they deserved, and then continue to preach about suffering and learning to walk. Shes a hypocrite, shes a manipulator, and shes for all intents and purposes imo a monster. These are all things that fit under Venat's guise as well and its why i made the comparison. Both were in the wrong, both were horrible people, and both effectively doomed humanity in one way or another.

[Stachiko]

She took control out of mankinds hands though. She sundered them and gave htem no choice in the matter.

Out of everything, this is what bothered me the most. All of our decisions, all of our actions were ultimately guided by a "diety" who was initially human. They were fighting for good, asking for help, but in a fight that was never truly considered good vs evil. It was one human's actions against another.

I have so much beef with Endwalker but I can't critique it too heavily. Not when WoW has stuff like Sylvanas redemption arks. Albeit neither are amazing stories by high fantasy standards, one is clearly better written than the other.

[TaleraRistain]

She didnt seek out people and inform them of what was happening. Instead, she did the very thing youre bashing the occuria for, she took control of her own peoples lives and shattered them. She didnt give them the chance they deserved, and then continue to preach about suffering and learning to walk. Shes a hypocrite, shes a manipulator, and shes for all intents and purposes imo a monster.

We don't know for sure what she did. That's one issue with that cutscene. It was dramatic but very stylized. It goes in a few steps from Hyth going off to get sacrificed to people begging Zodiark to restore the world they had. So the timing is very much not real time. I hope if they do end up going back to the Ancients in either MSQ or side quests, we get more exposition on that. There's also a question of what Azem was up to away from both summonings.

[Lauront]

The Ancients are a lot like the Occuria. They have processes to decide what is "worthy" to live,

No, the star decides that by deciding what to bestow a soul upon or not. What they work on is arcane entities/creations, no different to sprites, egis etc., which may gain a soul if the star deems them suitable, at which point they become animals etc. And their criteria for whether a creation gets released to the star are based on how well suited it is to a number of criteria fostering the star's own biodiversity, how well it integrates into its ecosystems etc. We have to remember that creation magicks come as naturally to the ancients as breathing, so in many ways it is admirable that they focus them in this productive a way. They even saw the coursing of their own souls through the star upon death as its lifeblood.

which was one of the main things Hermes took issue with.

He could not even bring himself to accept the death of a blatantly deadly species like the Lykaones, which would decimate other species; and at that point these things are still presumably arcane creations, not that it matters hugely. He could not understand why his mentor would eventually want to return to the star. He did not find an answer that satisfied him in any star, while designing Meteion really poorly to deal with the grief she'd encounter and then selfishly refuses to prevent her from falling into deeper corruption. His fellow researchers were endlessly accommodative towards him, even deviating from their usual process of adjusting the concept for efficiency's sake (it should be noted from the sidequests Hermes is not alone in entertaining such ideas, nor is he alone in grieving creations prematurely ended.) The easier answer here is that the guy is a nutjob, who ultimately cared so much about life he doomed nearly every single star in Meteion's path to death, all because he wanted to vindictively frame a question while hiding all knowledge of it to make it "fair", a cruel streak which survives in Amon who himself is dissatisfied with any answer he receives. So let's not pretend he's some wellspring of empathy.

They've set themselves up as the arbiters of what happens on the star. Except for a couple of exceptions, they won't intervene to help others. There's that one pair in Amaurot who are arguing about just that.

Ya, it's called a debate. The ancients liked having those. The premise was whether they'd deprive that other city state in question of its autonomy. It wasn't out of some desire not to help it, but whether it would be suitable to do so. In the end, they were actively researching the Final Days for the sake of the entire star. They did not universally butt in to other cities' affairs but stating that they did not intervene to help others as a rule is a lie.

They hold themselves aloof and disconnected and have one seat on their Convocation that does their dirty work in going out and understanding civilizations for them.

They all originate from said "civilisations". The chair exists for the very reason that the Convocation wanted to understand what is going on in the broader star to orient its decisions, so that is a bizarre claim. Hades himself had a background as someone who travelled a lot. It's not that the other seat occupants did not necessarily travel, but that that seat (Azem) was dedicated to it for the purpose of providing them information. The other seats all had their own spheres of expertise and responsibilities, like any real government. You're inventing a caricature. These are the sort of feelings animating the Convocation:

And they consider that person the weirdo. The right or wrong of Venat's actions in XIV can be debated until the cows come home, but she did put the control back in mankind's hands, for better or worse.

Hmmm no she didn't. Mankind was the ancients, represented by the Convocation as their governing body, so you're setting up a false dichotomy from the outset. Reasons for it aside, she sundered her own people and every other life form on the star when she didn't like the answer to her platitudes which failed to explain the situation, causing a huge civilisational reset and degradation of life, and she does not even accept the core premise behind Hermes's challenge, so much as try to answer the test he set. The sundered are not exactly more empathetic to lesser life forms, be they created by their own hand (arcane entities etc) or not (animals etc); if anything, the opposite. As to Venat's character? She's considered eccentric, yes, as is her successor. What of it?

Meanwhile, the supreme deity set mankind the test of either her champion besting her or if they failed, taking their leave of the star.

[TaleraRistain]

They all originate from said "civilisations". The chair exists for the very reason that the Convocation wanted to understand what is going on in the broader star to orient its decisions, so that is a bizarre claim. Hades himself had a background as someone who travelled a lot. It's not that the other seat occupants did not necessarily travel, but that that seat (Azem) was dedicated to it for the purpose of providing them information. The other seats all had their own spheres of expertise and responsibilities, like any real government. You're inventing a caricature.

There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem. They didn't in the island story. Azem went against their decision to save innocent people the Convocation was just going to let die.

"The island had one village upon it, and a wealth of fertile farmland─all of which would soon be lost. But that was simply the way of the world. As in many such cases, our role was merely to acknowledge the fact. The islanders would do the same, and those who deemed it prudent had likely already begun to move elsewhere. While it was true that the Convocation intended to discuss the matter, the conclusion would be no less inevitable."

The Ancients may have held funeral rites and respected deaths but their folly was complacency.

[KizuyaKatogami]

There's no guarantee they had to listen to Azem..

Except as we see when we go to Elpis, even though Hades may not believe us, due to his duty of the star he takes it upon himself to investigate. Not only this but he knows he was mind wiped. It’s as simple as Venat telling him how it happened. Irregardless he would have to investigate, and this isn’t even accounting for the fact she could just simply use the echo to show him. I feel like we’re going in circles with this because people are purposely being oblivious to fairly obvious ways it could’ve been addressed.