Disappointed in one Endwalker Aspect [SPOILERS]

[Denishia]

As a Silmarillion fan, if we want to start drawing the parallels, what we're really getting into is if the Gift of Men is a gift or not, whether the Tale of Adanel is true and the current mortals actually had mortality from the start or had the elven style functional immortality unless slain by violence or willing dying (via depression), and if the Ancients actually had the mandate from Ilúvatar to be the sub-creators and stewards of Arda like the Valar or if that authority is self-appointed.
This, however, is not the forum where we debate which element from HoME should have greater canonicity, thank the Belain.

[EaraGrace]

You are wrong about Enervation. Its effects were stated clearly and truthfully in Shadowbringers.

EMET-SELCH: "As a counterbalance to Zodiark, Hydaelyn was created with the power to enervate her foe. This singular ability strikes not at such banal things as flesh, but at everything that defines the target, diluting its existence. For example, if she were to strike at you... *points to Ryne and snaps his fingers, a second Ryne appears* Two individuals identical in appearance, yet reduced in all respects. Strength, intelligence, the soul itself -- all is halved."

… yeah that’s my point. Thank you for posting the relevant dialogue, it says what it does clearly.

Also, no. The Sundering is nothing like amputating a limb. Amputation requires that the limbs die, not gain new wills of their own. The parts of the original people of Etheirys were split into identical physical copies, which then died 14 times faster than they otherwise would have. The only thing it was necessary for was our precise story, and issues within that story, its plot holes, question that necessity.

You misunderstand why I use that analogy. My point is doing harm is justified when the harm is a necessary part of doing good for that individual. Those Sundered, as well as their descendants, needed to be Sundered from Zodiark to face the Song of Oblivion and weather the crises to come.

We don't even know Venat as well as we know Hermes. A character that just showed up this expansion. Which, Venat pretty much is, since all past renditions of her have been vague expositors which add almost nothing to the character we know her as now.

That’s… not true though. We spend a large amount of time with her in Elpis. We hear her story, what she loves, why she fights, and we see what she suffered during and after the Final Days and the Sundering. She explains clearly her reasons, and what she hopes for us both in Elpis and when we reunite in thr Aetherial Sea. Our understanding of Hermes, in comparison is not equivalent, but is still extensive.

[Rulakir]

WoL at least did tell everyone and can even offer to stay and help before leaving Elpis. Venat convinced them not to.

But yes, WoL also being partly culpable in this is quite an issue people have had with the story.

This. Unfortunately, what we were left with was entrusting the knowledge of the future to someone who arguably misused that information and prevented us from acting further to make a difference. So, at the end, I came away from it feeling like dirt. Not only had I failed to save anyone in the past, I trusted the wrong person to do the right thing, and I gave her the ammunition to do it with too.

We can surmise the ancients did not live forever but Emet-Selch (in the Ladder encounter) describes them as living for an age, or in the FR version, as being practically immortal. So I'd consider it to be of little relevance whether infinite lifespans were reduced to rather short ones, or whether ones we'd consider exceedingly long were cut in such a fashion. It is still a drastic reduction.

I wish I'd read this far before I started shuffling through screenshots. :P Well, self inflicted damage is done, the exact EN quote (from Emet @ the Lift cutscene) is: "Men knew peace and contentment, and with our adamant souls, we could live for an age."

[MikkoAkure]

This. Unfortunately, what we were left with was entrusting the knowledge of the future to someone who arguably misused that information and prevented us from acting further to make a difference. So, at the end, I came away from it feeling like dirt. Not only had I failed to save anyone in the past, I trusted the wrong person to do the right thing, and I gave her the ammunition to do it with too.

To be fair, before sending us back in time Elidibus tells us that we cannot undo the Final Days. Elidibus himself already knows everything that happens because he realizes that we've already done this and he saw us there (Pandaemonium). He sends us back in time already knowing that we're not going to change history and stop the Final Days from happening. And besides that, our world, everyone we know, and we ourselves owe our existence to the fact that the Final Days already happened.

The idea that WoL staying behind would actually affect anything is pretty naive. What could we possibly do and who else could we tell without Fandaniel finding out and then sabotaging everything again? The Final Days themselves could be hundreds of years off still and happen after the end of our natural lifespan. Meteion herself is out there and the Ancients have no way at all to deal with her directly. Even if we somehow magically save the day for the Ancients, what then? This is a video game, not a book or a movie. Saving the day for the Ancients would mean our world would never exist. What would you expect to happen? That we go to Elpis, tell Emet-Selch all the things that happen but that we still love him and stay behind in Elpis for the rest of the video game and the day is saved and we never go to any other zones or do anything ever again?

[KariTheFox]

This is a video game, not a book or a movie. Saving the day for the Ancients would mean our world would never exist. What would you expect to happen? That we go to Elpis, tell Emet-Selch all the things that happen but that we still love him and stay behind in Elpis for the rest of the video game and the day is saved and we never go to any other zones or do anything ever again?

Not just a video game, a massively multiplayer video game. A linear narrative RPG might be able to get away with making huge parts of the game inaccessible. But... could you imagine if everyone above level 87 just vanished from the main game world?

[Kordarion]

The Final Days themselves could be hundreds of years off still and happen after the end of our natural lifespan.

If there is a large amount of time between our adventure in Elpis and the final days it could help explain how Venat choosing to go with the sundering could simply be a last resort option. This is considering the fact that when Venat says goodbye to you in Elpis just before returning to the present I remember her saying something about not being sure whether or not the timeline will split or stay whole. Because our time-travelling appears to create a time loop this could mean that if there was a large amount of time between Elpis and the final days that Venat might have tried and failed to find another solution than the sundering. Of course this is all rampant speculation and could all be grossly wrong but if it does end up being right it would make it much harder to portray Venat as some purely evil being.

[Cilia]

Theoretically, the PC could stay behind in the World Unsundered and help Venat (?) stop the OG Final Days, but that raises two big issues:

1. They would be cut off from Etheriys as we know it, existing as an orphan of time like Exarch G'raha.
2. It would abandon Etheriys as we know it to certain doom. The Sharlayan / Hydaelyn's exodus plan would save some people but not everybody, the reflections would all be annihilated, and the threat Meteion posed would still be out there for the indefinite future. Further the PC, the lynchpin on which everyone's hope rests, disappearing would probably make the Final Days much worse.

You can't have your cake and eat it too.

Further, the idea Hermes wanted to impress upon the rest of Amaurotine society - that lesser beings deserve a chance to live on their own terms - would never get through. Unimaginable calamities and 12,500 years failed to teach the few survivors empathy for other living things; what hope would rhetoric have? Their pursuit of perfection would also likely damn them one way or another, sooner or later, and all of this is predicated on the idea the Ancients would be able to stop Meteion in the first place.

...

I am aware Yoshi-P aims to make the game entertaining above all, but when you get lines like...

What meaning there is to be found in the petty vicissitudes of your existence must be gleaned by you and you alone.

... it's really hard to argue there's not philosophical overtones to the story.

Finally, one cannot argue "there is no good or evil only perspective" and follow it up with "Venat is an irredeemably evil monster." Again, you cannot have your cake and eat it too.

[Kordarion]

Not just a video game, a massively multiplayer video game. A linear narrative RPG might be able to get away with making huge parts of the game inaccessible. But... could you imagine if everyone above level 87 just vanished from the main game world?

It's the same reason that before Endwalker had even released that I knew the Scions were never going to be killed off, they are a necessary part of the trust system. The same thing occured to me when we told Venat, Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus about the future, that we couldn't change the past or we would make parts of the game permanently unavailable. In both cases, the scions dying and stopping the first final days, there are overriding gameplay reasons as to why such things could never have happened in the story.

[Lyth]

Catching up on the discussion, I feel like we're no closer to understanding how sundering the world is equivalent to outright killing it. But the real question is: why should we forcibly equivocate the two?

Ah, Venat, the mitotic murderer. You know, life is full of these little setbacks. One moment you're a veritable god, able to create and extinguish entire species with the snap of your imagination. The next, you're just a mere Hyur (unless you had the good sense to fantasia), with taxes to pay and laundry to do. Perhaps growing up and facing the real world feels kinda, sorta, maybe as bad as dying. But that's a critical distinction - it isn't the same as dying. And that which doesn't kill you... makes you Azem.

Don't get me wrong, I understand full well that Venat is the true main villain of this story (the writers got it all wrong, they're just out to foist a friendship and love agenda). Thank goodness that we're smarter than them. But why are we so invested in making Venat out to be the big bad in the first place?

Much of the discussion seems to focus in on Venat as Hydaelyn, and then the discussion falls down to whether you're a supporter of team past or team present. But there's more to it than that. I think that the real reason why some people struggle with her character is because they just can't accept Venat as Azem.

Though the world be sundered and our souls set adrift, where you walk, my dearest friend, fate shall surely follow. For yours is the fourteenth seat - the seat of Azem.

Azem presents a serious writing challenge. Our entire attachment to Amaurot hinges around how well the writers can make us feel like we actually lived there. When our new old friends waltz up and pick back up the conversation like we've known each other for years, it really gives off a warm, welcoming feeling. When they laugh and tell tales about our past mischief in the third person, we're invited to live up to those stories.

But the Revan setup, while appealing, is a dangerous game. Not everyone is naturally an impish trickster goddess. It's perfect if you are, because you can just lean right into the role. But if you aren't, the writers risk alienating you from the character that you actually want to play. And so we're offered up a second, proxy Azem instead - Venat as your mentor.

Azem isn't a person. It's a job stone. Equip it or leave it. It's a persona. Much like our other job trainers, we gain insight into how the seat of Azem historically functioned though watching Venat at work. At which point you can decide for yourself how much, if any, of this that you want to incorporate.

In 'Etched in the Stars,' Hyth outlines Azem's role:

'Among all the offices, the Fourteenth was the most unusual. For while the rest sat in Amaurot, its holder was charged with gaining an intimate knowledge of the wider world. In the course of her duty, she traveled the length and breadth of every land, and befriended countless folk. She encountered troubles too. Matters which she could simply have referred to the Convocation. But that was not her way. Nay, more often than not, she would call upon her comrades, and together resolve matters themselves. Such is the magick sealed within that crystal - the magick to summon the stars to your side.'

If you want to understand Venat's actions, then you really need to look at them through the lens of Azem. Her attitudes and decisions, whether you agree with them or not, are well in keeping with someone who has spent many lifetimes in that role. (I'd be curious to know more about her collaborator on Elpis, as well as that fellow researcher of hers whose simulacrum went on to become the Watcher - she more than likely has her own crew, and I'd like to know who they are.)

The challenge with mentor characters is that you generally are forced to keep them out of the main conflict of the story. If they taught you everything you know, then they should be capable of doing everything that you're doing - except better. It's a bit like playing the Joker card to win the game. They're allowed to steal the show on a whim, just not too often, or else the actual protagonist becomes a side-kick. The story reframes this as 'Venat's battle was in the past, now yours is in the future.'

And that's the crux of the problem. The proxy Azem, on some levels, is a better us than us. It's not abnormal to feel a bit of insecurity about this. And while Emet can naturally pull this off with authority because he's a disgruntled old man, unfortunately it's just going to rankle some folk when Venat does the same thing, that contemptable Mary Sue!

There must be something wrong with her. There must be a way that we can drag her down into the mire.

There's no need for any of this, nonsense, though. Venat shows us the way, but this is still our story, and there's much more to come. The Azem setup was a big risk with a big payoff. I want to support the writers in taking these kinds of risks.

I want to learn more about Venat and her own inner circle of travelling friends. (Who came up with the original idea for storing memories on soul stones? Is Venat's friend on Elpis another one of the Convocation? Is that why there's a blank Lahabrea stone floating around that matches the colour of the concept crystal that you retrieve?) I want to know more about our past lives saving polygonal grapes from volcano primals. And if it means that I have to watch someone else be the hero for a bit, I really don't mind. Our story is still ultimately the one that ties all these threads of friendship together.

[Veloran]

Theoretically, the PC could stay behind in the World Unsundered and help Venat (?) stop the OG Final Days, but that raises two big issues:

Issues which disappear if the timeline was simply split. Then their timeline could be saved without impacting our own. As for the trouble of WoL returning to the present, there isn't any evidence of such a thing being impossible, G'raha never even made an attempt for such a thing.

It's the same reason that before Endwalker had even released that I knew the Scions were never going to be killed off, they are a necessary part of the trust system.

I've never understood this argument. We see in Elpis that new Trust members can be switched in at any time.