Endwalker's story had me, but lost me. Ethical issues especially (spoilers)

[Anonymoose]

It feels like I visited Elpis, and my character thought "Gee, you guys sure have a nightmare coming, sure glad it's not my world" as if she didn't care.

I don't know what I believe was on Moose's mind there, lol. In my mind I was ready for shenanigans because if we just needed to see the past, we didn't need to go. This could have been an Echo. Something was up. But Moose? Was was he thinking? I guess, first off, "What the eff, man, Elidibus said I'd be incognito."

But one of the illusions of time from a 3D perspective is that there is a "now" or that anything "didn't happen yet" or "already happened". It's all happening at the same time from a 4D perspective, which means we all need to subjectively experience our role in it for it to stay real otherwise that all vanishes and a new "way it always was" comes into being. Shadowbringers undermined that by using the Rift. G'raha even says outloud, "I still exist. Weird." lol. And yet for some reason Endwalker appears to buy back into Alexander whereby Hydaelyn sets things in motion by sending her champion to Elpis to do the things that already happened to ensure Emet-Selch and Hythlodaeus prop up her edits in Ultima Thule.

Emet-Selch even calls himself, in one language, "the keystone holding this all together and ensuring it works," and that he can't figure out if Hydaelyn is punishing him or offering him an olive branch by giving him the role of delivering the final message from their people.

[Rinoa]

I felt like, as a player, I'd lost agency and connection to my character (it wasn't my WoL anymore) and it was not a good experience.


I realized that not only were we not going to be able to save anyone, but now my character is an accomplice to their fates for having said anything. As if the situation weren't bad enough, making me responsible for it by sharing knowledge with Venat who did not use it well felt awful. I never got over the ending of Elpis, it soured the rest of the expansion for me and has made me doubtful for the future.

Gosh, Rulakir, that was very well written. Complicity is the issue. I now feel like my WoL is part of the same issue that caused the amaurotines to go down the wrong path. Like my WoL is cut from the same cloth, and can't find a better way. I wouldn't be able to look my fellow scions in the eye as if I weren't guilty of causing this then.

[Rinoa]

"What the eff, man, Elidibus said I'd be incognito."

That made me chuckle lol. I just realized, you poor lalafell. I had it easy being tall lol.

[LalafellDown]

Just like real life character is grown through trials and fire. If our habit is constantly living in fear, anxiety and depression. That’s what we wear inside and out. When we move forward and over come a fear, anxiety and depression we grow as individuals. when those negative moments come again we are ready because of the habit we practice in those trials. we over come like the gospel teaches.

The ancients in Venats time refused to overcome and wanted to return to bliss, but refused like the other planets to overcome their current situation. They all just gave up which makes no sense, because in reality not all individuals have the same character.

Venat created a word of struggle, where suffering caused by others is a choice and overcoming bad situations is growth. Despair may come and go like real life, but building a habit of overcoming leads to strength.

[Brightamethyst]

my character would see the possibility of having two peaceful timelines from this currently split timeline.

But there wouldn't be two peaceful timelines. Even if you saved the ancient world and it spun off into a "the ancients lived in peace forever" timeline it would still need to be destroyed in "our" timeline or we wouldn't exist in the first place. Saving everyone was never an option.

We see this exact scenario play out in ShB. Sending the tower back in time prevented the calamity in one timeline but all the people in he other are still dead.

[redheadturk]

But there wouldn't be two peaceful timelines. Even if you saved the ancient world and it spun off into a "the ancients lived in peace forever" timeline it would still need to be destroyed in "our" timeline or we wouldn't exist in the first place. Saving everyone was never an option.

We see this exact scenario play out in ShB. Sending the tower back in time prevented the calamity in one timeline but all the people in he other are still dead.

The fact that they still exist in the split off timeline would be good enough for me. Even if they died so we could exist in ours that they had a chance at a peaceful existence in another makes splitting the timeline worthwhile to my WoL.

[KizuyaKatogami]

You're not alone in your feelings. Venat is a divisive character who's been debated here at length. I could never in good conscience do what she did and, like you, my WoL would not have been complicit in it. I felt like I did back in ARR, a lobotomized tool being led by NPCs assuring me I was doing the right thing while my WoL nods and goes along with it. I'm never once given an option to express disapproval, instead I'm strong-armed into this 12k year BFF relationship with Venat/Hydaelyn which was extremely uncomfortable given my feelings about her and what she did. I felt like, as a player, I'd lost agency and connection to my character (it wasn't my WoL anymore) and it was not a good experience.

Now there's an issue of can I continue to RP a WoL that so fundamentally differs from my moral values? This is a concern of mine not only going forward into new storylines, but in their handling of Azem as well. Hydaelyn may have ended up being a hero in the WoL's timeline, but she's still an antagonist to the Ancients. Nothing changed there, in fact, it's even worse because she didn't lose her memories like the others and did it all by choice knowing the outcome. However, the narrative does not treat her as if she's done anything wrong. She may acknowledge what she did "wasn't a kindness", but there's no regret on her part, there's not a single NPC who admonishes her for what she's done, and the WoL is accepting of all of it. The whole thing was problematic. Like, you've witnessed a horrific crime and everyone is telling you it was for the best. Honestly, between her and Hermes I felt legitimately gaslit by EW. Both acted despicably and both are defended and praised. It was bizarre.

I think the writers had a challenge figuring out a way to justify an unjustifiable act and even with the heavy handed storytelling still didn't manage it. I also think they had a romanticized idea of the story coming 'full circle' to the extent that the writing felt contrived to make that happen. Going through Elpis, I desperately wanted to tell them the truth so they could save themselves, I felt so much relief when we finally did, and then the post-dungeon happened. I realized that not only were we not going to be able to save anyone, but now my character is an accomplice to their fates for having said anything. As if the situation weren't bad enough, making me responsible for it by sharing knowledge with Venat who did not use it well felt awful. I never got over the ending of Elpis, it soured the rest of the expansion for me and has made me doubtful for the future.

This is basically all my thoughts as well. Very well said and i think it highlights a lot of the problems people have with the story and it’s flaws this expansion.

[Rinoa]

The ancients in Venats time refused to overcome and wanted to return to bliss, but refused like the other planets to overcome their current situation. They all just gave up which makes no sense, because in reality not all individuals have the same character.

Venat created a word of struggle, where suffering caused by others is a choice and overcoming bad situations is growth. Despair may come and go like real life, but building a habit of overcoming leads to strength.

You don't need to live in a war zone, and lose people, in order to grow wiser. It sounds like something somebody living in a comfortable advanced society would say. Venat didn't create any world, she just set everybody back. What happens when eorzeans eventually rise to the levels of the amaurotines? There's not much different besides shorter lifespans, and thinner souls. I don't agree with such destructive views. The only reason the Amaurotines went that way, was because of the final days, and because they didn't have enough voices of reason against it in their time of pain. If suffering is good, then the final days should have resulted in them all growing as people.



Earth's society can be looked at as an example of how increasing the standard of living helps people grow more capable. When something bad happens on earth, I could say it makes people grow the wrong way, not the right way. Thankfully everybody is still working together to make things better, even if they bicker along the way.


But I'm unsure if earth society compares well to eorzea, since there are other complications such as emotions being a form of energy. I like to be optimistic though.

[Lauront]

You're not alone in your feelings. Venat is a divisive character who's been debated here at length. I could never in good conscience do what she did and, like you, my WoL would not have been complicit in it. I felt like I did back in ARR, a lobotomized tool being led by NPCs assuring me I was doing the right thing while my WoL nods and goes along with it. I'm never once given an option to express disapproval, instead I'm strong-armed into this 12k year BFF relationship with Venat/Hydaelyn which was extremely uncomfortable given my feelings about her and what she did. I felt like, as a player, I'd lost agency and connection to my character (it wasn't my WoL anymore) and it was not a good experience.

Now there's an issue of can I continue to RP a WoL that so fundamentally differs from my moral values? This is a concern of mine not only going forward into new storylines, but in their handling of Azem as well. Hydaelyn may have ended up being a hero in the WoL's timeline, but she's still an antagonist to the Ancients. Nothing changed there, in fact, it's even worse because she didn't lose her memories like the others and did it all by choice knowing the outcome. However, the narrative does not treat her as if she's done anything wrong. She may acknowledge what she did "wasn't a kindness", but there's no regret on her part, there's not a single NPC who admonishes her for what she's done, and the WoL is accepting of all of it. The whole thing was problematic. Like, you've witnessed a horrific crime and everyone is telling you it was for the best. Honestly, between her and Hermes I felt legitimately gaslit by EW. Both acted despicably and both are defended and praised. It was bizarre.

I think the writers had a challenge figuring out a way to justify an unjustifiable act and even with the heavy handed storytelling still didn't manage it. I also think they had a romanticized idea of the story coming 'full circle' to the extent that the writing felt contrived to make that happen. Going through Elpis, I desperately wanted to tell them the truth so they could save themselves, I felt so much relief when we finally did, and then the post-dungeon happened. I realized that not only were we not going to be able to save anyone, but now my character is an accomplice to their fates for having said anything. As if the situation weren't bad enough, making me responsible for it by sharing knowledge with Venat who did not use it well felt awful. I never got over the ending of Elpis, it soured the rest of the expansion for me and has made me doubtful for the future.

Precisely how I felt about it too. Knowing her reasons etc. doesn't really do much to alter my view.

Using causality loops and split timelines in the same game without explaining either of them directly was discontent waiting to happen. Now we've got one massive causality loop attached to one side of a Y-shaped timeline spawned from Rift shenanigans, and within the stem of that Y is another resolved causality loop for Alexander. Until Oda and Ishikawa walk everyone through all that in a PowerPoint, people are going to keep telling each other their unconfirmed opinions about how it works are wrong.

I hate time shenanigans for exactly this reason. I was impressed how well Alexander handled the illusion of time from a 3D perspective when its contents are edited from a 4D perspective and now... whatever this is... haunts me.

What's everyone gonna do if it's just applied phlebotinum? The Rift last time, dynamis this time, don't think too hard about it?

/shudders

Yup, agreed on that much.

[EdwinLi]

She only approached them after the final days occurred though and she had lost everything. After we go there, she has the knowledge the final days are going to happen, that’s what makes her so shitty. She didn’t get mind wiped. She could’ve told Emet and Hythlo. She chose to keep the secrets and lie and then sundered the world when in reality had she told them they together most likely could have done something about it. That’s the issue. If they had made it where she too got mind wiped and did the sundering out of desperation that no one knew wtf was going on then that’s more understandable. But they made it all even more convoluted by having her memory still intact so she just looks incredibly bad.

From a certain point of view it will appear she kept it all a secret from everyone in Ancient times but as Venat said, she had gathered people she could trust during the time between Elpis and the Sundering day when WoL left back to his/her time. The issue is that we did not see her journey between Elpis to the Sundering day so it looked like she kept it a secret from everyone when she did not since she said before WoL left she went on gather allies she knows won't try to stop her plans to defeat Meteion.

That is why I believe Venat's story is badly handled because we are missing a large chunk of her story that lead to that moment and by missing that large chunk of the story people will assume many negative things about Venat similar to how people assumed alot of things about charaters we know little about since we only see the beginning and end of the journey but never the journey that lead to the end.