Are melds and super gear really necessary?

[Molly_Millions]

Let me pose a question to you all, because this is one that Xak and I have been discussing for a while. Have any of you beat the moogle fight with nobody in the party having melded armor, no Ifrit weapons in the party at all, and only single melded weapons?

[Matsume]

Let me pose a question to you all, because this is one that Xak and I have been discussing for a while. Have any of you beat the moogle fight with nobody in the party having melded armor, no Ifrit weapons in the party at all, and only single melded weapons?

I cannot honestly say I've tried that, for the single fact that it would be a hassle to organize:

"okay y'all, we're gunna try an experiement- go have carbon copies made of all your gear without materia attached, leave your primal weapons at home and attach a savage might IV bow onto a crab bow and lets roll moogles"

"but master... i'm maxed out on inventory space T_T"

[Jinko]

Let me pose a question to you all, because this is one that Xak and I have been discussing for a while. Have any of you beat the moogle fight with nobody in the party having melded armor, no Ifrit weapons in the party at all, and only single melded weapons?

It's unlikely anyone has come across that situation unless they purposefully did so.

Naked Ifrit and moogle runs would equate to about the same thing, minus the weapons of course.

[Molly_Millions]

It's unlikely anyone has come across that situation unless they purposefully did so.

That's what I'm curious about, really. Has anyone done it? I'd be willing to bet that it's an extremely difficult endeavor if it's possible at all. In the only naked runs I've seen, everyone has pretty badass weapons.

[fusional]

Let me pose a question to you all, because this is one that Xak and I have been discussing for a while. Have any of you beat the moogle fight with nobody in the party having melded armor, no Ifrit weapons in the party at all, and only single melded weapons?

almost every (active) person in our LS had kill credit within 24 hours of patch release. nobody had materia melds on patch day because we still weren't sure about stats and didn't want to waste time bothering with it. maybe half of the LS had ifrit's bows. we didn't use the infamous wipe/raise exploit. we were playing awfully, doing like 45-60 dps and still winning pretty easily.

so.

i can't reiterate this enough- gear doesn't matter. weapons don't matter. ifrit's bow DEFINITELY doesn't account for 20 dps, not even half that. as my LS mate mentioned, the combination of ifrit's bow *and* double meld gear is still only worth ~10 dps.

if people are struggling, gear is just an excuse. play better.



(and btw, our top dps tested a moogle run with unmelded gear and a NQ crab bow and still did 79 dps)

[tachi]

We do not know the damage formulae, unless you have worked it out and refuse to tell us you cannot say dlvl has an impact.

Also unless you can prove otherwise I would say dlvl doesnt impact it, a mob like ifrit or moogle at lvl 60-70 (not sure of the exact lvl) will have higher stats than a normal 50-60 mob, therefore the att vs def and str vs vit calculations will be different.

It could be on ifrit and mog we arent breaking the threshold to up thier def/vit which I can understand, but on lower lvl normal mobs I can do alot more because I am over a specific att/str which makes me do more damage.

dlvl would mean you are -10 lvls so its an instant -10%dmg (numbers pulled out my ass).

This can be proven by finding mobs the same lvl with lower def/vit and seeing how much damage we do but because we dont know the stats of ifrit and mog, it could be tough.

Simple example regarding the returns on critical potency (not simple to figure out but a good illustration of the dlvl effect none the less):


Full writup:
http://kanican.livejournal.com/56489.html

TLDR: If the new instance raids are chock full of mobs in the r50-r55 range then we should see sizable increases in dps from gear(signifacantly more then we see from ifrit/mog).

[Kaeko]

The difference between "naked gear" and "good gear" is most noticeable in situations where your raw damage per hit is low. This is due to the fact that adding stats and ATK provides a raw linear increase in damage as opposed to a % increase. Evidence for this is provided in the link someone gave earlier (I am "kanican", one of the 2 players that extensively tested this, and the one that wrote the public version linked). To cite you two simple examples:

Say you have 2 ARC with Ifrit's Bow...

The naked one does 10 damage to Whiskerwall (GLA Moogle). Well geared ARC has +50 ATK and every ATK provides roughly 0.4 raw damage (0.3938 from testing on R55 mobs - yes dLVL does matter). That comes out to an additional +50x0.4 = 20 damage. This means the well geared ARC does 10+20 = 30 damage. That's 3x (200%) as much damage as the naked person.

Now let's move to situation 2 where we are fighting Furryfoot (WHM Moogle). Naked ARC now does 200 a shot to Furry because he has much lower defense. The well-geared ARC still has +50 ATK and he still gets ~0.4 raw damage per ATK (GLA and WHM have the same dLVL). This means the well-geared ARC still gets 50x0.4=+20 damage. So his damage is 220. This is only a 10% damage increase as opposed to the 200% earlier.

If you are skeptical it works this way, I encourage you to parse a naked vs. well geared ARC on the moogle fight sometime, but specifically ONLY parse furryfoot and whiskerwall instead of overall damage. You will see the average damage per shot difference be pretty sizable on Whiskerwall but be pretty small on Furry.

As illustrated by these 2 situations, the difference between poorly and well geared players is extremely dependent on the mob. Rydin is correct in that I stated the formula as "elegant" in a previous thread. One reason for this is because you really only need to increase "endgame" mob stats to make more mobs like Whisker and fewer mobs like Furry and you'll get your "gear check" fights.

Everyone wants to assault the melee-defense formula for being broken, but you really just need harder fights. I could go into a lot more detail but this isn't the forum or thread for it I think so I'll leave it at that.

Best of luck gearing your ARC out.

[Jinko]

TLDR: If the new instance raids are chock full of mobs in the r50-r55 range then we should see sizable increases in dps from gear(signifacantly more then we see from ifrit/mog).

Yea perhaps, but trash doesn't matter anyway.

I could go into a lot more detail but this isn't the forum or thread for it I think so I'll leave it at that.

Better to discuss it here than some obscure site that nobody knows about.

[Molly_Millions]

now somebody tell me that a 200% damage increase doesn't matter.

[syntaxlies]

now somebody tell me that a 200% damage increase doesn't matter.