Other MMOs and their History

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

Critique and suggestion are one thing, and are quite welcome. Games that have a service lifespan, such an MMO's, can and should evolve and tweak things along the way. One needs to keep a delicate balance between keeping the community happy and engaged, and not heeding bad advice, however.

In regards to the WoW-issue, it's not so much that the majority of the community is hostile towards the WoW-refugees or that their opinions/suggestions aren't valid. What does set off red flags, is things that would push a major change in the direction that XIV has taken, many of those directions are what has lead to WoW's current state of affairs (Scandal not withstanding).

I played WoW from Vanilla to WotLK, then took a break during Cata and came back for Pandaria and Legion. That was when I left fully. I saw how the game went from something that was community focused, freedom of choice, and various content that applied to all manner of playstyles into a endless, mindless end game gear cycle grind. That's all it became.

The core drawing point of XIV, which many a player came to appreciate and came here for, was that you didn't need to marry the game and devote every waking moment to it, to still be relevant at max level. Catch up mechanics in place, a decent amount of raiding content with various skill levels to suit everyone's tastes, and other activities if raiding wasn't your thing.

So while WoW deviated from its original incarnation, the way the game was in the early days (Which, I will point out, is the version of the game Yoshida-san meant in his now 'infamous' quote of taking inspiration from WoW for when they were building ARR), XIV has continued to go down that same overall road of its original incarnation.

It's changes that would deviate XIV away from that overall feel, that the majority of the XIV playerbase here on the forums doesn't like. At least, from my opinion and observations.

No one would be upset to get *more* raiding content, as long as the same core structure to it holds, with the catch up mechanics and difficulty. I could even name a few things from WoW that I would LOVE to see come to XIV, such as the Transmog system. Having a catalog of items that I've "unlocked" and could freely glamour would be so, so much more preferred over having to hold onto so many items, just for glamour. I think we can also all agree, helping out XIV's PVP system would be beneficial as well.

TLDR: It's one thing to offer suggestions, and the community should welcome suggestions. However, suggestions should also be made in mind with what type of MMO XIV is, at its core. XIV hopefully will never, and should never, alternate away from its all-encompassing nature that it has to, say, become the endless gear/power grind like WoW has become.

[Espon]

When I came to this game I was expecting something different than WoW as I grew tired of the endless grinds and toxicity. I was no longer having fun and the game felt like a job. In FF14 I feel I can take my time and just enjoy things.

Unfortunately, a lot of WoW players come to FF14 hoping for an exact replacement to WoW as that game is no longer what it once was and end up being disappointed with FF14 and come to the forums to complain. You will not find that game here. This isn't WoW, this is FF14.

WoW funnels everyone into the current content and discards the rest of the game. The old content is still there in FF14, you can still do ARR raids at minimum item level and find some challenge. You can't go back to relive old classic fights in WoW unless you play on the classic servers, and even then that's a limited time thing. I actually enjoyed watching WoW streamers like Asmongold and Quazii as they wanted to enjoy all the old FF14 content and not just focus on the end game. Sure, some might say they've been "carried," but they still had to learn the fights and wiped many times.

In WoW, the story is now an afterthought, while in FF14 it is right front and center. If you started WoW today, you would be thrown into the previous expansion, greeted with a short tutorial and then be sent on your way. You won't know who any of the characters are or why you should even care about them. In FF14 you're introduced to the characters early and get to watch them develop over time. Every place you visit still has relevance later.

There are things in WoW that I wish were in FF14; it's not like this is a perfect game. I do occasionally miss the huge epic raid dungeons, or having multiple difficulties for dungeons (hard doesn't count, that's just a new dungeon and they didn't add any in ShB!) Also, headgear design. Why are the WoW modellers able to stick helmets on cow men, space goats, and werewolves without it looking dumb, but I can't keep my friggin' ears as a catgirl?

[IdowhatIwant]

I respect your hypothesis but we have only seen the game strengthen by not adhering to another MMO's formula.

Do be alleviated I regard the huge plethora of WoW fanboys that have lambasted 'casual' players for years on end, I do not mean to enrope you in such salty passions.

If there is a lack of content I am not seeing it, in 3 weeks we have full dungeons, a 50hour+ MSQ, 4 raids, an EX trial, and Savage to come right around the corner.

Hunt trains and FATE trains are being done with heavily active world content to save materia, gear alt classes, and obtain other goodies.

Content has come on multiple fronts in a large wave and this is how FF14 is. Players will occupy themselves raising other classes to help cover bases in Savage content to come.
Hoard materials and materia in prep for crafting.
The players are content. We have grown tired at the breakneck speed people playing 1 class burning through a fight and gear in day(s).
I think that Yoshida for some part does have the FF14 average player's wants where we are given a breathable pace to raise other classes and seek all our interests and pursuits instead of only doing the 1 track thing, raise 1 class get it as geared as possible. Do naught else.

My issue is not content released in an expansion launch, which I could go on a rant about how formulaic these are as well as the patch cycles on how they are a good thing and a bad thing.

We have only seen the game strengthen from WoWs down fall and a lot of youtube / twitch hype which IMO is extremely biased and over played. As sadly youtube and twitch is essentially how games get recognition today but thats a different topic. The game only recently became as popular as it is. That video belular released about how great gearing in FFXIV was for preraid is a fairly good example of this bias. WoW WoTLK had a fairly similar take on gearing preraid which was farming heroic dungeon modes, and onyxia runs. Sure the players can be more toxic but so can FF players. IMO WoW actually has more options for gearing which is a little more fun and I've believe FF should have stolen some of these ideas like world quests, pvp gearing ect, it can leave the artifact power grinds and RNG rolls behind.

My gripes with cut content have existed since it was announced in Stormblood as we were promised better casual content in it's place that in my opinion I have not seen. Also with class homogenization which has only gotten worst with each expansion. I would go as far to say WoW actually has some more unique class design than FF in many cases specially when referring to tanking and healing.

There is no "we" have been tired of break neck speed people playing 1 class and burning through fights and gear in days, maybe you. People have done this since ARR and it will not change. If people want to do that there is no problem with doing so. You do not have to level all classes to have fun do you not have to do the MSQ to have fun people can play the game they way they choose. The game very much adheres to WoWs MMO formula when it used this formula which it is based off of.

When you demonize everything about one game and evangelize everything about another you start missing pros and cons of both. It's a common problem many people have today where x is all bad and y is all good. Again this is where this game is going to go down hill, because we want to praise the dev team on everything but not address problems that exist.

[Zaene]

@Arkeneaux

Well said.

I find myself struggling on some level when it comes to endgame gearing though. I don't often have the drive to form a static to progress, and so would like something that could be less formal, like 4 man savage content or something like that. Mythic dungeons sound good but, I think it runs into the problem you highlighted here. If they were made then people would feel like they had to complete them, especially if they could be completed regularly like WOW's mythic dungeons, and doubly so if there were progression to them with increased rewards for higher difficulties.

Then we find the other issue, the fact that there's nothing to do with such higher level gear aside from continuing to do the content that you got the gear from. I'd love to see some other avenues of difficult content that could push players to their limits, not sure what it would be but it would be nice.

[strawberrycake]

TLDR: It's one thing to offer suggestions, and the community should welcome suggestions. However, suggestions should also be made in mind with what type of MMO XIV is, at its core. XIV hopefully will never, and should never, alternate away from its all-encompassing nature that it has to, say, become the endless gear/power grind like WoW has become.

I look to what another User Said earlier. A lot of people look at modern WoW, not WoW from 2004 or beyond, they only talk about raiding and the hardcore aspects of WoW, not the other aspects of WoW. So it's nice to see someone whos played WoW when it was a younger game.

As a whole I would simply like to see people learn from WoW players, as Yoshida learned from Looking at the development of WoW, and what made WoW as a game popular. As a whole most of my wants as a WoW player would be for achivements to be more meaningful, content to be more replayable. I also like things like secret finding, more world content. That being said, most of my comparisons are never based from modern WoW.

And a lot of my points don;t need WoW to be the sole base, theres ESO, Tera, Guild Wars 2, etc. Multiple other games whos systems are amazing.

And even then XIV doesnt need to change anything as a game, more so, the community could still just stand to stop being so territorial, and to simply try to understand other people. Even if nothing changes, what could go wrong from understanding other MMO players outside of XIV?

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

My issue is not content released in an expansion launch, which I could go on a rant about how formulaic these are as well as the patch cycles on how they are a good thing and a bad thing.

We have only seen the game strengthen from WoWs down fall and a lot of youtube / twitch hype which IMO is extremely biased and over played. As sadly youtube and twitch is essentially how games get recognition today but thats a different topic. The game only recently became as popular as it is. That video belular released about how great gearing in FFXIV was for preraid is a fairly good example of this bias. WoW WoTLK had a fairly similar take on gearing preraid which was farming heroic dungeon modes, and onyxia runs. Sure the players can be more toxic but so can FF players. IMO WoW actually has more options for gearing which is a little more fun and I've believe FF should have stolen some of these ideas like world quests, pvp gearing ect, it can leave the artifact power grinds and RNG rolls behind.

My gripes with cut content have existed since it was announced in Stormblood as we were promised better casual content in it's place that in my opinion I have not seen. Also with class homogenization which has only gotten worst with each expansion. I would go as far to say WoW actually has some more unique class design than FF in many cases specially when referring to tanking and healing.

There is no "we" have been tired of break neck speed people playing 1 class and burning through fights and gear in days, maybe you. People have done this since ARR and it will not change. If people want to do that there is no problem with doing so. You do not have to level all classes to have fun do you not have to do the MSQ to have fun people can play the game they way they choose. The game very much adheres to WoWs MMO formula when it used this formula which it is based off of.

When you demonize everything about one game and evangelize everything about another you start missing pros and cons of both. It's a common problem many people have today where x is all bad and y is all good. Again this is where this game is going to go down hill, because we want to praise the dev team on everything but not address problems that exist.

I can agree with about 90% of everything you said, there. A few points I'd raise an opposing viewpoint on:

The preraid gearing structure. You compare it to WotLK WoW, and how the youtuber praised XIV's. Fair, but also a bit skewed since WotLK doesn't exist in that structure within WoW anymore. So it'd be more fair to compare Bel's feelings on the WotLK preraid gearing structure against his current view of XIV's to see if he had positive viewpoints on each, or had a differing opinion on the two, and thus loose credit to himself.

Also the different methods of gearing. The core structure is in place that both games offer the same type of gear. Raiding, Currency-based (Tomestone, etc), Crafted, PVP. Though, I will absolutely fully agree on the quality of some of these gearing methods in XIV could use a hard, hard boost. PVP is in a dreadful state, for example. Another example is the constant reusing of older models for gear (This is probably my BIGGEST critique of Endwalker. Reusing the assets. Other than the 560 Job AF gear and the 570 Tomestone gear, we received like... no new models. Some of the redos aren't even dyable).

Otherwise, I agree completely with the spirit of what you said. More content isn't a bad thing, as long as its focused. Not everything from X is bad and Y is good. As long as it would "fit" into XIV's core design and structure, there's room for improvement.

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

I look to what another User Said earlier. A lot of people look at modern WoW, not WoW from 2004 or beyond, they only talk about raiding and the hardcore aspects of WoW, not the other aspects of WoW. So it's nice to see someone whos played WoW when it was a younger game.

As a whole I would simply like to see people learn from WoW players, as Yoshida learned from Looking at the development of WoW, and what made WoW as a game popular. As a whole most of my wants as a WoW player would be for achivements to be more meaningful, content to be more replayable. I also like things like secret finding, more world content. That being said, most of my comparisons are never based from modern WoW.

And a lot of my points don;t need WoW to be the sole base, theres ESO, Tera, Guild Wars 2, etc. Multiple other games whos systems are amazing.

And even then XIV doesnt need to change anything as a game, more so, the community could still just stand to stop being so territorial, and to simply try to understand other people. Even if nothing changes, what could go wrong from understanding other MMO players outside of XIV?

Learning from others is a valid sentiment. Learning is NEVER a bad thing, in any shape or form. Even for those who disagree with any changes, learning the perspective of the other side would give insight on what mistakes to not repeat.

Also another very important thing to remember: Not every game, nor MMO, has to be the same either. Modern WoW has its style, for good and bad, as does XIV. As does ESO. As does every MMO out there.

The way I've always looked at XIV, the most beautiful part about it anyway, was that it casted a wide net of a userbase from a player standpoint. It looked at the MMO market during ARR, and took its lessons from what worked and what didn't, to appeal to the largest section of the playerbase that it could. This is the philosophy that served the game well over the years.

A good analogy to it, is how Nintendo was so successful with the Wii, with its Blue Ocean marketing strategy. You know your market is dominated by X and has a huge playerbase. That playerbase will be hard to take away. So instead, you create a "new" playerbase by offering something unique. In truth and design, there wasn't anything ground breaking in XIV's design, there still isn't. What WAS unique, was that it catered to nearly every type of MMO player. It had something for the Hardcore, the Casual, the RPer, and added things that drew in gamers that weren't MMO players, such as the mini-game focused Gold Saucer, the housing/decoration angle, etc.

To me, as long as the game continues to market itself to the wider customer base, and doesn't change its full course such as how WoW's course changed, I'm 100% open to suggestions and trying out new things for the game. As long as what makes XIV, it's identity, doesn't change. Because it's that identity that I feel has lead the game to be as successful as it is.

[Alklios]

@ IdowhatIwant

I had to accept the inevitable that FF14 had more of what I could enjoy, leaving WoW as a 90% of the time PvP'er to a game's PvP is just a mega zerg fest with little individual difference made in the match.

It took me several years to become accustomed to FF14 and actually explore other facets I enjoyed, and I can say my blood pressure about playing an MMO has dropped significantly.

I believe your points efforting are valid but I do not see the evidence to them.

In my experience the current WoW melee experience has been run up to enemy hit 1-4 and repeat. Rogue CC has been thrown out of necessity, people scream at you for wanting to CC mobs instead of RUSH RUSH RUSH PULL PULL. Because content is so casual nothing is like experiencing Magister's Terrace heroic for the first time.
Pally/Shammy utility has been thrown away.

In FF14 I can tell completely who is int he party from the unique buffs and debuffs going around. The different degrees of support. Knowing how my tanks are going to mitigate their damage because I know how holmgang, hallowed ground, superbolide, and living dead all work separately.
I know which tanks have weaker HoTs than most and others having burst healing.
I can tell how dungeons are going to vary in runs and smoothness depending on makeup and which class excels in AoE vs Single target or even group buffs.

To me, these classes represent much more flavor than Modern WoW. The 8 Seals, the 7 Auras, the huge list of totems and various buffs are all gone.

It's walk up to enemy, whack it with X-strike ability, stormstrike, mortal strike, crusader strike, etc, repeat 4 button rotation.

[strawberrycake]

Learning from others is a valid sentiment. Learning is NEVER a bad thing, in any shape or form. Even for those who disagree with any changes, learning the perspective of the other side would give insight on what mistakes to not repeat.

Also another very important thing to remember: Not every game, nor MMO, has to be the same either. Modern WoW has its style, for good and bad, as does XIV. As does ESO. As does every MMO out there.

The way I've always looked at XIV, the most beautiful part about it anyway, was that it casted a wide net of a userbase from a player standpoint. It looked at the MMO market during ARR, and took its lessons from what worked and what didn't, to appeal to the largest section of the playerbase that it could. This is the philosophy that served the game well over the years.

A good analogy to it, is how Nintendo was so successful with the Wii, with its Blue Ocean marketing strategy. You know your market is dominated by X and has a huge playerbase. That playerbase will be hard to take away. So instead, you create a "new" playerbase by offering something unique. In truth and design, there wasn't anything ground breaking in XIV's design, there still isn't. What WAS unique, was that it catered to nearly every type of MMO player. It had something for the Hardcore, the Casual, the RPer, and added things that drew in gamers that weren't MMO players, such as the mini-game focused Gold Saucer, the housing/decoration angle, etc.

To me, as long as the game continues to market itself to the wider customer base, and doesn't change its full course such as how WoW's course changed, I'm 100% open to suggestions and trying out new things for the game. As long as what makes XIV, it's identity, doesn't change. Because it's that identity that I feel has lead the game to be as successful as it is.

I can def agree with that to, a lot of the core identity of WoW I enjoyed is gone now a days and I no longer enjoy it for the same reasons I did before. The design behind what made be care to even get into raiding in Wrath is gone for example, Its not fun for me to raid lead, its not fun for me to gear, its just not fun, but I can see the appeal. That being said, I think adding bigger raids statics and PFers can tacklewouldn;t be a bad idea, we've done it twice so far, and it would be nice to more content like that regulaly, it wouldn't take away from XIVs core.

We have the Bozja system for fates and Critical engagements, creating more open world content in that vein wouldn't take away from XIVs core. And those are the type of changes I'd like to see, similar ideas to what WoW has done, but in a very XIV way. if that makes sense.

[ArkenaeuxBelmont]

@Arkeneaux

Well said.

I find myself struggling on some level when it comes to endgame gearing though. I don't often have the drive to form a static to progress, and so would like something that could be less formal, like 4 man savage content or something like that. Mythic dungeons sound good but, I think it runs into the problem you highlighted here. If they were made then people would feel like they had to complete them, especially if they could be completed regularly like WOW's mythic dungeons, and doubly so if there were progression to them with increased rewards for higher difficulties.

Then we find the other issue, the fact that there's nothing to do with such higher level gear aside from continuing to do the content that you got the gear from. I'd love to see some other avenues of difficult content that could push players to their limits, not sure what it would be but it would be nice.

I would think an easy solution to all of those problems, and bring back some older content to repurpose and restructure just for this, would be a PotD styled dungeon.

Floors could get progressively harder, just like we're used to. Every set number of floors, a Boss encounter happens. Boss drops that "chunk" of floor's token for that portions appropriate ilvl. Floors could be rerun to gather the tokens.

Each patch phase that introduces new floors would release the same ilvl gear attached to the tokens, that the appropriate difficulty warrants. So maybe like, 5 ilvls below what Savage offers, or if the difficulty of it IS that high, on par with Savage ilvls. Gear would have unique skins, offering a reason to do it even if one already has the Savage gear, for the glam.

That way, catch up gear when its offered gets you into the previous floor's tiers. Content can easily be tailored to 4 people. Size of each floor could be tailored depending on how much trash is acceptable (Meaning it doesn't need to be 10 floors then Boss like PotD is, it could be more like 2 floors, boss, 2 floors, boss, etc). Have 4 bosses each patch tier.

Or XIV could take inspiration from WoW's Mage Tower. Another type of content that could add challenge, as long as it was scaled appropriately and its rewards aren't used as a "gate" to other content.

All rewards from all avenues should be of similar ilvl, with the difference being appearance, to add to the glamour hunting.