Other MMOs and their History

[strawberrycake]

Agreed. I have been much in support that before LFG in latter half of WOTLK, the focus was not accelerating gear like mad and *rush rush rush* demand throwaway content, but even then I feel that attitude really took off in Legion and beyond.

It was incentivized to even progress through BC to get raid gear before the WOTLK play to really have a much smoother transition.

I remember when it came out and I loved how it could run content when I needed to over using the LFG chat for hours for a simple Nexus run xD. But I can say for sure I dislike the feeling when I started Mythic raiding in BFA that I HAD to do content, or I was behind. I think I ran around 20 keys one day gearing my hunter to only feel burnt out the rest of the week on logging in. And while I think things should be incentivised, it should never make a player feel bad or like their slacking. Players going the extra can be rewarded, but the players who dont shouldn;t feel punished.

[Alklios]

So much of the animosity toward "WoW players" at the moment is because you have seen many FF players came from oldschool WoW, probably even played the original Warcraft games.

We played the game when it respected our time and thus continue to play another game that respects our time.

In WOTLK rollback 2008. I was in Highschool, getting up at 6 every morning getting home at 4PM and doing chores and all and needing to be in bed by 10PM to even function. A few hours a day to play. In that time, I was eventually full Arena geared, Furious Glad stuff and the raid tier just shy of heroic gear. ALL THE WHILE playing gw1, Gunz the Duel, and Ragnarok online on the side for funsies, and filling most my WoW time with WPvP.

I speak for myself, perhaps others, that the new WoW players, Legion Fanboys etc have NO CONVICTION. You let a gaming company take a poop in your soup and continued to digest it. To play it.
Scorned any possibility that other games could give you what you wanted and relied on an Influencer to make the decision for you.
So now ya'll come 2 faced with hand out demanding this game be much like a game that does not respect your time. Insults you as a player.

There would have been less salt and more sympathy if we were not insulted and called 'bad' and screamed to 'git gud' at monster addicted no lifers for years when our skills were pruned, skill ceiling dropped almost to the floor. We were told we were not 'hardcore' enough to grind hours of mythics and repeat content.

So we are here where our dollar is respected and ya'll get upset and feel 'stratified'. Well ya'll called this side of the fence dog poo for years and just now want to be a part when some big influencer said it was not dog poo. Ya'll made that bed. Now your ideas are being met with a fierce opposition of an older player base.

[Zaene]

I lament some parts of MMO history long, long dead. For example, in FFXI, maps were bought or(paradoxically) found in chests in the zone themselves, and some were expensive, so there were cases where unless you had someone to guide you it was entirely possible to get lost. And I mean LOST LOST in zones filled with extremely dangerous mobs. That may be "artificial difficulty" but it was a special experience impossible to get now.

The reduction of player agency is something brought about oddly enough by the streamlining of game processes. Auto-filling maps, quest markers, weaker enemies, all positives that end up meaning that players are actually deprived of challenges. -Now some may say that these are just quality of life improvements, e.g., I can go somewhere online and look up a map, or I'd just look online for where to find the quest objective, but that isn't the point. You are deprived of the choice to try to figure it out yourself.

I've played many MMOs in the past, WOW, FFXI, Ragnarok Online, SWToR. I can appreciate what each game does well, the sense of thrilling danger of being in the open world with war mode on in WOW, the sense of accomplishment found in single-handedly putting together a highly functional party in a level appropriate area and deftly rotating members in and out to get excellent xp/hr in FFXI, hunting MVP mobs, cards, and War of Emperium in RO, the story in SWToR. Certainly there are some things that can be borrowed, and the insinuation that even the idea is laughable is dangerous to the future of FFXIV.

All that said, I find myself agreeing with the sentiment that if the only reason people may come to FFXIV is that an influencer decided it was FotM, I question such individuals' decision making abilities.

[Krotoan]

Title comes off as an innocuous request for discussion on MMO history.

Thread - of friggin' course - is now WoW vs. FFXIV.

@OP, if you truly wanted a discussion about MMO history, using "WoW vs. FFXIV" in your post as an example was a really silly move. Admit, you don't really want a discussion about MMO history, do you? As a naturally inquisitive individual who is a fan of both knowledge and debate, I probably would have started with a paragraph on MUDs, which I used to play 'till the sun came up, back in the day.

Neverwinter Nights? Asheron's Call? EQ?? Anyone??? LOL...

"Other MMOs and their history" indeed.

/shrug

.. seems like maybe you could contribute a non-WoW take then rather than just lambast them? I'm gonna bet that's probably all OP has.

[strawberrycake]

.. seems like maybe you could contribute a non-WoW take then rather than just lambast them? I'm gonna bet that's probably all OP has.

You are Right actually, most of my MMO experience comes from WoW, I've been playing it since Vanilla and started XIV back in ARR. I've loosely played other MMO, but not as indepth as WoW and XIV.

[Gameovers]

I'm so glad I came from Tera and never actually played WoW. I feel like the only player in the world who's never touched that game. I started with Tera... and if you wanna count these, PShome, and IMVU lol. I count them.

[IdowhatIwant]

Y'all wanted grind upon grind and cried for years about classes being too complex so we suffered 3 rounds of skill pruning and got even less flavor as PvE "hardcores" became the dominant appealed to. The players that have to choose only *one* path the best min/max with no regard to situation or utility.

Who is yall? And who is asking for a grind. Which if you have ever done a relic quest in this game, it has grinds.
I am talking about cut content being replaced with what you are referring to as a carrot on a stick content. And I think many can agree FF needed the pruning it got as classes were already starting to get skill bloat in HW.

Barren wasteland of mention. FF14 will not yield to "throwaway" toy mentality. This is not the game for you if that is all you want.

Bozja, Zadnor, Eureka, and those island things in HW are all throw away content. Bozja and Zadnor are only used right now for XP grind which likely will get nerfed or become dead again once people get the classes they want to 90.

[Alklios]

Historically, Western MMO's had eventually built themselves to break the godawful grind of the Far Eastern MMOs.

Maplestory. Ragnarok (hate to say it). Phantasy Star [to name a few].

GW1. WoW. SWTOR. Eventually GW2. Maybe ESO?

Grind was casually inherent to building a character pursuing a build and sticking what path you were going to do, maxxing out PvE or PvP. GW1 spared the latter by making servers for fully equipped and all skills unlocked max lvl toons for those that wanted that playstyle. GW1 had separated PvP and PvE tooltips to consider all players.

WoW is in the highlight because it has devolved itself back to arbitrary playtime. It had clung to a facebook survey released in 2016 detailing how gambling increases gaming addiction. A plan for the short term, now their profits are steeping immensely.

The game used to be about climbing a wall. Taking a rest on a rung. Then reach the next stone. Now it is a tireless marathon on a treadmill with no off switch and it is grind and play every day or be left behind.

It has been terraformed into the 'hardcore' min/maxxer paradise by pruning skills to the point of 4 button rotations across the board and flavor and ability and utility sapped from every facet. Mythics denying you spec swapping or even weapon swapping to run the treadmill and somehow FF14 is the one that feels homogenized?

But this is not a true min/maxxer. In WoD I could handpick every mix of secondary skills and in expansions prior, reforge out garbage stats for the spec. I had clear and meaningful talent choices instead of 'This is the leveling skill, this is the arena skill, this is the garbage skill'.

Ya'll want to play a templated game, clearly, with 1 way and 1 path but cry when choice and control is presented. A mind controlled game experience where you do not have to choose. That is the 'new WoW player' paradise and they hate it so yet refuse to acknowledge that is what they wanted and shaped and tolerated 3 expansions post WoD. And now there is no turning back.

In as friendly words as I can muster, after enduring being lambasted and insulted as a 'non hardcore' player for years along with tens of thousands of other players if not more, those coming over following the influencer are a parasite that has ruined a childhood favorite MMO for many, and are now mad they are breaking a fever and met with fervent resistance against a formula that has worked and endured.

The history of MMO's has come full circle twice. Grind, freedom, grind, and now freedom triumphs again. A non-compelled game style.
Those that respected their players and saw them as more than dots on a graph gather their profits and those that do not lose them among other scandals involved on the side.

With classic runescape alone having more subscriptions than WoW, I can only hope them the best. But FF14 will not yield to the stinking cesspile mentality of wasteful 'content' and no lifers needing to be entertained 24/7.

[Alklios]

Who is yall? And who is asking for a grind. Which if you have ever done a relic quest in this game, it has grinds.
I am talking about cut content being replaced with what you are referring to as a carrot on a stick content. And I think many can agree FF needed the pruning it got as classes were already starting to get skill bloat in HW.




Bozja, Zadnor, Eureka, and those island things in HW are all throw away content. Bozja and Zadnor are only used right now for XP grind which likely will get nerfed or become dead again once people get the classes they want to 90.

Tell me again how no one will try to get relic weapons again.

Relic weapons were completely optional. I did not have to do them to continue past the story. A <1% stat difference on 1 of my 12 gearslots.

In regards to pruning I was speaking on WoW how we lost 60-70% of our skills on many classes since Pandas and yet the continued players of the game are crying about that loss of 'flavor' after demanding skills be pruned years ago. And then come here, and say that classes have no identity.

"Ya'll", are the MMO player base that has lambasted players yearning for control and choice in their gaming experience and are keen on policing how anyone enjoys their game with 'git gud or get gone' mentality.

If you patrol say, WoW forums for a time. You will see plenty of threads and in the past that players wanting ilvl removal from PvP gear are being insulted as wanting 'free gear'.

Then the community council was created and spoke the same truth on the topic, and was met with bullheadedness by the team once more.

That is their mentality, and there are a large plethora of players that will vehemently defend it and insult and disdain anyone unwilling to commit such unfathomable hours to a system that once had tenfold greater participation and activity in the past.

[Shibi]

While Yoshida is doing a great job of doing what he's been doing, even he himself, has said that XIV players should welcome and understand other MMO players as well. And to Deny people with MMO experience, and possible insight other players have would be foolish in my opinion.

I think it's a bad trait to consider your word is so important that you try and take over someone else's project/job and do it yourself. It's a rather entitled view and it doesn't take into account the long term plans that they have for the game that we are not privy to.

Please consider to let YoshiP do his job, and when the game no longer suits you, head to another.