My humble take on new SMN

[aveyond-dreams]

Again, interpret me however you want. I just find fans of MCH prior to Shb rare and interesting, especially with their takes on Summoner. I'll leave the general public to decide which direction they'd rather things go in.

[zcrash970]

Counterpoint: Machinist in Shadowbringers, vs Machinist in Endwalker.

Dont forget about dark knight

[ServantNaoya]

Dont forget about dark knight

It's okay, we have the true Dark Knight now, and it's called Reaper.

[zcrash970]

It's okay, we have the true Dark Knight now, and it's called Reaper.

Fair point.
Also people don't acknowledge aveyond-dreams. It's either a troll or a moron. Neither deserves attention

[Myon88]

Ok here's my summoner feedback.

• Job is still poor at managing combat with downtime.
  This problem didn't exist in the past with aetherflow and dreadwyrm trance, it's a problem that was created when the job shifted to 'combined trances' like firebird trance starting from Shadowbringers. If these abilities come off cooldown without a target present, you are unable to use them, delaying your rotation and your access to more damage. The best designed jobs have flexibility and control over their primary resources, while summoner can only pray that nothing interferes with their scripted burst windows.
  
  There are ways to solve this without going back to older designs. For example, summoning bahamut with unused egi crystals could augment the demi summon, perhaps an ifrit crystal would replace astral flare with flare breath, or titan would convert akh morn into akh rhai. This way, if you fall behind due to pauses in combat and are unable to use your egis quickly enough, you can catch up and recoup some of the damage lost.
  
  It could also open up the possibility of deliberately leaving egis unused if a stronger demi summon is preferable down the line, while also changing up the rather spammy and boring egi phase and encouraging more hardcasting. There are many ways to creatively iterate on the current design. This is the kind of depth summoner is sorely lacking right now.

• Arcanist half of the toolkit is unfocused
  Ruin 4 is only used once a minute, it's just there and kind of lame. We don't need two versions of energy drain/siphon. For something also only used once a minute, they don't offer enough of a difference in gameplay to justify being two buttons. Imagine if energy siphon was a self heal instead of an attack, while still generating aetherflow. It would offer a meaningfully different option while also solving the problem above. Physick continuing to exist feels like a prank. More can be done to integrate these skills naturally with the primal related skills.

• Distracting spell effects
  You can resize primals, but their initial attack animation is unaffected. It's really flashy, happens every 15-20 seconds, and it's going to be a liability in difficult content when it blinds your party. It's not ideal for people to have to turn spell effects off or resize pets just because a summoner is around.

• Unreliable carbuncle utility
  I'm not a fan of your personal shield becoming unusable while your egi is doing their summon animation, bahamut/phoenix I can understand since they're a full pet replacement. Split seconds matter in difficult content, so these short lockouts are a nuisance. I guess you could say it's part of the job fantasy, but it feels like you're still dealing with the downsides of being a pet-based job, with none of the upsides.

Despite all this, I think they've succeeded at establishing a strong identity for summoner going forward. The spell effects are pretty and instantly recognizable as that of a summoner. They're great. It's a fine baseline, but it's also just that - a baseline. It feels like a level 70 job and from a mechanical and gameplay standpoint there are many refinements I would like to see.

[AceofRains]

One thing I think could a small step in the right direction is giving back 3 stacks of Aetherflow.
Being able to use even just one more stack make those one button GCD spam phases just a little more rounded out.

I like others also feel Ruin 4 is underwhelming but I also do see where it’s the last GCD that just fits into the rotation timing window. I’m not entirely sure what should be done here for it, other than maybe making it more accessible alongside spamming your Bahamut attacks. I really don’t know.

Last- for sure it needs more Summons. Idk how that will be facilitated though. Can you only have 3 and just customize? Glamour but have awkward elemental properties? Have all 6 elementals? Go wild and have versions for things like Ravana and Tsukiyomi?

I very much like the direction the went and it’s pretty much what I had in mind when I drew up my own ideas for it. If we did get Shiva, Levi and Ramuh, I think a great build up for it would be to use them in an order that attunes you to Astral, Umbral, or Neutral. Or even attune to Light or Dark as a build up to Summon Zodiark or Hydaelyn (They are primals so theoretically…)

For instance, Summon Ifrit, Ramuh, and Garuda attunes you to Astral. Being attuned could empower or alter things like Fester and Painflare.
Alternatively if you wanted to attune to light, instead of Summoning Ramuh there you Summon Shiva.

EDIT: I also wanted to mention Carbuncle’s shield. Contrary to some of the gripes about it being unavailable while Summoning, that’s kinda the point. Iirc the shield lasts 30 seconds. The only time you can’t get it is immediately after a basic summon, or during a Demi-summon. That being said, I apply it long before I know an incoming attack will hit me. The best time to weave it is right before you whip out your next Summon. I actually like playing around this because it gives it just a bit more of a skill window whereas a lot of complaints are saying how lacking the rotation is in the first place.

[SargeTheSeagull]

The devs need to do SOMETHING before 6.1 to make summoner less brain dead. It’s fun and I prefer it to the cluster we had in ShB. Letting us summon Bahamut and Phoenix whenever (ie on separate buttons), giving them a different effect (Phoenix gives a party damage buff, Bahamut gives a personal buff) would be a good start.

In fact, allow us to summon any of our five summons whenever. Locking ifrit, titan and Garuda behind bahamut/phoenix doesn’t make much sense. I agree with OP; Ifrit, titan and garuda’s astral flow should 100% be gotten around level 60. Not getting that until 86 is boring. Another random idea: the elemental summons could give unique effects. Titan gives you a defense buff or barrier, Ifrit gives the party a 3% damage buff for a couple GCD’s, Garuda gives you a movement speed buff.

Or maybe each summon’s astral flow gets a different button and you can save them up for a burst window. You can go through ITG, not use their astral flows at all, wait until a two minute buff window comes, weave all the astral flows between ruins. Alternatively, summon ifrit, not use crimson cyclone/strike, summon Phoenix and still have access to cyclone/strike.

I know none of these ideas are perfect or even maybe good, but summoner is so horribly lacking any complexity right now it’s painful. It’s fun to play and I think the devs are going in the right direction but I hope they give it some major changes. Ideally before savage comes out/ in 6.05.

[TofuPenguin]

Aside from the simplicity of the job, I thought it a bit pointless to have phoenix tied to the loop since it had the heal. What's the point of having a heal if you can't use it on demand?

I was generally ok with ShB SMN. My only gripe about it back then was the janky pets with skill queue issues and ghosting. I think the new summons look cool but the class feels barebones right now. Would like to see some kind of improvement in the future. I'm not creative enough to come up with any good ideas for the job.

[Riguel]

I don't mind the changes to summoner but I do feel there is room for improvement of course. I've started a new character to level up summoner to get a beginner's feel and then playing with the changes I've gotten with my lvl 81 on my main. Here's a few things I noticed and could help improve it. Running MSQ roulette, I've noticed I can do my rotation just fine except for the Ruby spells. Before I can get one of those cast off, enemies are usually dead. I've also noticed I can get either two Ruin or Tri-disaster spells cast before I could cast one of the ruby spells, which at that point makes those spells kind of useless coming from a damage perspective.

I think a reduction in the cast time for the ruby spells would help balance their usefulness vs casting two ruin/tri-disaster. I think it would also help giving us an attack for carbuncle we can cast during the Aethercharge phase that way we aren't just spamming ruin the entire time until the bar drains. I think my last minor complaint is in the lower levels of being arcanist is them reusing icons for the attacks. I got really confused at first seeing two tri-disaster icons or two ruins show up on the bar when the ruby arcanum was activated. Even a recolour of those icons would be an improvement to showcase they are the arcanum spells.

[Jirah]

Again, interpret me however you want. I just find fans of MCH prior to Shb rare and interesting, especially with their takes on Summoner. I'll leave the general public to decide which direction they'd rather things go in.

MCH SB here and I despise the MCH 5.0 rework to this day, and it didn’t even accomplish a new order of mains their population declined literally after the next big job came out or never really had as strong following to begin with. And judging by SMN change it’s not looking good in 7.0 when they ignore the “perfect job” and give it like Ruin V or something benign and useless as mechanics go. I’m not as critical of SMN due to me not really maining it but the patterns is recognizable. Reworks are a curse, the true blasphemy