Dear SquareEnix/Natsuko Ishikawa - About Zenos in Endwalker *MAJOR MSQ SPOILERS*!

[MagiusNecros]

If they kill him off can we get his Vampire Coat and amazing Garlean armor. Many thanks. Would look great on Femroe.

[Miracle_Diva]

Zenos wanted to destroy the world and killed people, but he also had nothing more to his character than that. Where as both Meteion and Emet-Selch showed that they weren’t just selfish, homicidal maniacs. They weren’t utterly terrible people. You can’t redeem someone who is flat-out a terrible person—which Zenos has shown himself to be nothing more than what his father called him “a spoiled princeling”.

Meteion wanted to bring about the Final Days to spare civilizations of the hopelessness and despair that came from chasing perfection to the point of dehumanization (these two were especially present in the Omnicrons and Eas). Her motive was a very extreme answer to a “greater good”—a “it’s better for me to put them out of their misery”, if you want to think of it that way.

Emet-Selch wanted to rejoin the Shards to the Source so that Zodiark could break free of his chains, and use the remainder of those on the Source that would survive calamities to restore his world and his people—which he considered a “noble cause”. It’s a selfish motive when you view it from our perspective, but I don’t see anyone stating otherwise.

Zenos agreed to help Fandaniel usher in the Final Days for the sole purpose of making us “hungry enough” to fight him like some kind of rabid beast. That was it. There was no “greater good” motive to his actions. And he never expressed any sort of regret or even feeling really at this. All he cared about was getting his in the end.

I'm just going to leave this here.

[HyoMinPark]

I'm just going to leave this here.

Still doesn’t change my stance, nor any of my arguments in this thread. He is not deserving of a redemption arc, attempting to write one for him would be in poor taste, and he should be just left to rest.

[Miracle_Diva]

Still doesn’t change my stance, nor any of my arguments in this thread. He is not deserving of a redemption arc, attempting to write one for him would be in poor taste, and he should be just left to rest.

Yeah, I get it, you don't like the character, that's absolutely fine.
But it's quite ironic that characters like Meteion on your list get a pass for murdering civilizations because they have "a good reason" and therefore it's fine, but Zenos doesn't have a noble goal, therefore he's a bad choice for a redemption arc.

Mind you, I'm not asking for a redemption arc for Zenos.

[Illmaeran]

To contrast everything you said: Please leave him dead. It's time to move on from Zenos.

Agreed! He needs to stay dead and out of the story. He wore out his welcome in Stormblood, to say nothing of Shadowbringers. He may look cool and act all edgy-chic, but he's the most poorly written villain the game's ever had. Please, for the love of all that's right in the world, do not bring him back for any reason at all!

[Angwa]

Yeah, I get it, you don't like the character, that's absolutely fine.
But it's quite ironic that characters like Meteion on your list get a pass for murdering civilizations because they have "a good reason" and therefore it's fine, but Zenos doesn't have a noble goal, therefore he's a bad choice for a redemption arc.

Mind you, I'm not asking for a redemption arc for Zenos.

E-S and the other Ascians didn't get a pass for murdering civilizations. Sure, he got the chance to explain why they were doing it all, and kudos to the writers for making the murder of entire worlds not sound bonkers, but it was never going to change the fact it would end in a fight to the death. They were committed to saving their loved ones, so were the Scions and our WoL, and those two goals were mutually exclusive.

Furthermore, E-S and company also have the mitigating factor of being tempered by Zodiark, which makes all the difference in holding them accountable for their actions, definitely more than the likes of Yotsuyu and Fordola.

Not so with Zenos. His childhood and background could perhaps make us understand the misery he unleashed on Ala Mhigo and Hingashi, explain his sociopathic personality disorder and his tendency to weaponize the trauma of his underlings, but that understanding still would not be forgiveness.

Of course, he went even further, ushering in the apocalypse for the Source and all its reflections with the sole purpose of getting a rematch with the WoL, and at no point showed even a sliver of understanding that any of his actions were wrong, on the contrary even! So, yeah, Vegeta, but with the moral framework of Hannibal Lecter. No thank you, don't want to hang around with that character.

[HyoMinPark]

Yeah, I get it, you don't like the character, that's absolutely fine.
But it's quite ironic that characters like Meteion on your list get a pass for murdering civilizations because they have "a good reason" and therefore it's fine, but Zenos doesn't have a noble goal, therefore he's a bad choice for a redemption arc.

Mind you, I'm not asking for a redemption arc for Zenos.

Where did I ever say they got a pass? I said that writing redemption arcs for them would be far more believable and plausible versus writing one for Zenos because those characters have qualities that make them redeemable—which you need in order to write a GOOD redemption arc that will not come across as some kind of strange fan fiction. Zenos does not. Giving him a redemption arc when there is nothing redeemable about his character would make the entire storyline implausible. Researching simple writing basics is all you need to tell you this.

A character has to actually acknowledge their wrong doings and take accountability for their actions—and then strive to be a better person in order for a redemption arc to work. Zenos does not do this. He never takes accountability for what he does. He never acknowledges that he’s done anything wrong. He never tries to improve or grow as a character. His coming to the end of the universe was not to help us or anyone else: it was purely to seek what he wanted, which was to fight us. None of these contribute to a redeemable character. He is a selfish, singularly-driven character; which, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. You can totally have characters like that within a story.

Contrasting to him, Emet-Selch, while admitting he would have done nothing differently, at least acknowledges that what he strove to do to save his world ended in failure—and he left what was left of the Source and its reflections to us in the end. Meteion realized the flaw in her desire to “save” us from despair when she realized that happiness cannot exist without the other. Characters like Ysayle realized that what they had done—even when they had good intentions—was inexcusable and instead sought to make amends. These are characters in which writing redemption arcs would be far more plausible. Not villains like Zenos.

And none of this is me “giving them a pass”. I’m just stating simple facts about the characters and applying successful writing techniques with regards to creating successful redemption arcs to them. There is a difference between that and me saying “what they did was a-okay, I forgive them”.

If you’re going to try to argue with me, try actually reading what I’m posting first. Or do some basic writing 101 research. It’s not that difficult to see that he’s not a character in which a redemption arc can be pulled off for and pulled off well.

[ForteNightshade]

Yeah, I get it, you don't like the character, that's absolutely fine.
But it's quite ironic that characters like Meteion on your list get a pass for murdering civilizations because they have "a good reason" and therefore it's fine, but Zenos doesn't have a noble goal, therefore he's a bad choice for a redemption arc.

Mind you, I'm not asking for a redemption arc for Zenos.

Except nobody is forgiving Meteion or absolving her actions. Nor are they asking to bring the genocidal harbinger of despair itself on an adventure with us now that we understand why they wanted to usher death across the known universe. Furthermore, Meleion falls into a similar category as the Ascians that Angwa brought up. While not tempered per se, she was created to have highly astute emotional aptitude that essentially makes her siphon the emotional state of whatever being she finds. Being sent off to several worlds only to be meant with loneliness and despair while being asked (by Hermes) to determine the meaning of life wholly corrupted her entire thought process due to said power.

Knowing this still doesn't absolve her subsequent actions or make her redeemable despite them. Even Meteion herself says as much upon defeating her. Zenos has no such excuses. His every action is decided on a selfish, hedonistic pursuit of pleasure. And some people want to simply ignore his many, many horrendous character traits on the basis of Daddy Varus not give him enough cuddles as a boy. I mean, we're literally arguing about a character whose storyline included a not-so-subtle rape metaphor. This is the supposedly redeemable character whose hill needs to be died on. Seriously?

[Aneshda]

I'm not convinced Zenos is dead. We killed him once and he didn't stay dead. I think he's going to come back again. Although how he's going to get back from the far end of the Universe, I have no idea.

Oh that idea I have already in my mind. Remember we woke up Elidibus and now remember who talked in the final last moment of the Credits in Elpis ... He gave him a second chance, so Zenos should be his "problem" just like Fandaniel.

[Elysidelphi]

Where did I ever say they got a pass? I said that writing redemption arcs for them would be far more believable and plausible versus writing one for Zenos because those characters have qualities that make them redeemable—which you need in order to write a GOOD redemption arc that will not come across as some kind of strange fan fiction. Zenos does not. Giving him a redemption arc when there is nothing redeemable about his character would make the entire storyline implausible. Researching simple writing basics is all you need to tell you this.

A character has to actually acknowledge their wrong doings and take accountability for their actions—and then strive to be a better person in order for a redemption arc to work. Zenos does not do this. He never takes accountability for what he does. He never acknowledges that he’s done anything wrong. He never tries to improve or grow as a character. His coming to the end of the universe was not to help us or anyone else: it was purely to seek what he wanted, which was to fight us. None of these contribute to a redeemable character. He is a selfish, singularly-driven character; which, in and of itself, is not a bad thing. You can totally have characters like that within a story.

Contrasting to him, Emet-Selch, while admitting he would have done nothing differently, at least acknowledges that what he strove to do to save his world ended in failure—and he left what was left of the Source and its reflections to us in the end. Meteion realized the flaw in her desire to “save” us from despair when she realized that happiness cannot exist without the other. Characters like Ysayle realized that what they had done—even when they had good intentions—was inexcusable and instead sought to make amends. These are characters in which writing redemption arcs would be far more plausible. Not villains like Zenos.

And none of this is me “giving them a pass”. I’m just stating simple facts about the characters and applying successful writing techniques with regards to creating successful redemption arcs to them. There is a difference between that and me saying “what they did was a-okay, I forgive them”.

If you’re going to try to argue with me, try actually reading what I’m posting first. Or do some basic writing 101 research. It’s not that difficult to see that he’s not a character in which a redemption arc can be pulled off for and pulled off well.

And I am saying that Zenos can still do all of those things. He can come back and start on his redemption journey, slowly and properly. Ishikawa clearly has talent for writing good stories and good characters so she could pull this off, I wholeheartedly believe that. It would not retcon or negate his character. It would simply be an evolution, a change for the better. In real life, even the worst kinds of people, can change, improve, learn. A fictional character can also do that. Granted, it would take an in-depth well-developed story to make it believable, but my point is that it can be done, and it can be done well, without coming across as being in poor taste or fan fiction. The message with a character like Zenos should be that even horrible characters can slowly change and improve, they can find this wish within themselves. Just because he has never done this until now does not mean that he can never do it. To compare Zenos with the Ascians: in A Realm Reborn, Heavensward, Stormblood, and like half of Shadowbringers, the Ascians generally came across as bringers of chaos, entirely evil, entirely devoid of compassion and kindness, devoid of love or deep reasons, they received no in-depth development pertaining to their feelings, thoughts and pasts for years and years, for at least 6 years the Ascians came across as just murderers without deep reasons, without any sympathetic reasons, etc. And for those years it actually felt like they would stay that way, always evil and chaotic, but never explained in-depth. And then Shadowbringers changed it all. I think that deep down in the hearts of many, Ascians were actually redeemed, even if they don't say so aloud; and even for those people that consider that even with Shadowbringers and Endwalker Ascians were never redeemed, most of them now like them, find them sympathethic, would even call them friends. Obviously there are exceptions, there are people who will never like them no matter what, there are people who will never consider them friends no matter what, etc. But my point is: the Ascians did not receive proper development for at least 6 long years, and then Shadowbringers changed everything to the point that now Ascians, at least some of them, are extremely beloved.

Imagine if you will that we are now in the past, we are now in the life cycle of Stormblood, so you don't know anything you would have otherwise known from Shadowbringers and Endwalker. And imagine I make this thread on here during Stormblood and I make it about Ascians, I make it about Elidibus and Lahabrea (we knew their names in Stormblood) and I make it similar to this thread about Zenos, saying that they can be redeemed, they can have deeper reasons (even without having those extra Lodestone stories on them like we do about Zenos), that they can be explored more, etc. I bet most people would react the same way they react now about Zenos. They would tell me that the Ascians have been around for years and are getting old and boring and repetitive, they would tell me that they want Rejoinings and calamities that kill millions of people therefore they are monsters and have nothing good about them. They would tell me that they cannot be redeemed, that they have no depth to them, no ulterior motives to their actions, they're just insanely evil; they would tell me that Lahabrea should not be brought back because he was crazy and evil and had no depth/no details and he did a lot of horrible stuff (including possessing Thancred's body which apparently now means rape...). They would tell me that the Ascians have been around since 2.0 and we're now in Stormblood, it's 4-5 years later and they received no development so surely that means that the writers either don't know what to do with them beyond what we have or they don't care to do anything more with them.

And yet we got Shadowbringers and Endwalker, and Ascians received A LOT of development and in-depth stories, even if it took them 6+ years to get there.

My point is that the same can be done with Zenos. People can change and grow. People can learn and better themselves. Characters can do that too.

It's fine if you don't like Zenos. It's fine if you hate him. It's fine if you want him dead forever.

Again, the main reason I even started this thread was in the hopes that someone at Square Enix would see it and tell Ishikawa about it. I do not want to argue with people. I do not want to convince people of anything. Nor am I trying to have my own mind changed.

As for you, HyoMinPark, you made your stance on Zenos perfectly clear: you want him to stay dead and you apparently dislike/hate him and are convinced beyond a shadow of a doubt that nothing more can be done with him. So I see no point in continuing to engage with you past this. Your mind is made up. My mind is also made up. There is nothing you can say that will change my mind, just like I'm sure there's nothing I could say that would change your mind. So let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.