Sharlayan origins and the Endwalker Trailer

[SentioftheHoukai]

That was kicked off because 1000 years ago an Ascian told king Thordan I that you can get power by eating dragon eyes, and then he left and the whole region fell into chaos.

Minor caveat, Ascians had no involvement in the Dragonsong War. It was Ratatoskr herself who admitted to King Thordan the First of the power of a great wyrm's eyes. So in a way, she brought about her own demise by being perhaps a mite too trusting. It's just as well really, when as we see in the cutscene between Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr Nidhogg never trusted mortals from the start and was honestly (in my eyes at least) waiting for a reason to start shit with the weak races he thought unworthy.

[Rulakir]

There have been a number of star showers throughout the game, and while the Echo isn't the rarest thing in the world, it's still uncommon.

I thought ShB was clear that having the Echo wasn't the determining factor as others stated even though it wasn't triggered for them they still felt an overwhelming sense of loss. Unless I missed where it was specifically detailed that no Echo = no Ancient, in which case I'd like to read the dialog where that was said.

Go ask Shanti and her daughter how that worked out for them.

I said they had no reason not to believe it was beyond his power, not that he could actually do it. Given that Emet can pluck souls out of the Lifestream I wouldn't think it outside the realm of possibility. There could be a few factors as to why Sri Lakshmi couldn't do it, including that the Qalyana wouldn't have had that knowledge to impart or she was simply too weak a primal to manage it.

Also Hydaelyn willingly giving up most of her energy basically every meaningful encounter we have with her

The WoL has acted in opposition to the Ascians since the beginning, so it's in Hydaelyn's best interest to protect us. Plus, as she/Minfilia said in HW, "As the Ascians must serve as instruments of Zodiark's will, so too must others carry out the will of Hydaelyn." We know she conjures star showers and sends out an automated message to recruit.

One of my gripes is how little free will the WoL seems to have compared to others with the Echo. I didn't see Ysayle acting on behalf of Hydaelyn, she had her own agenda to the extent of becoming a primal. The same could be said for Arenvald, arguably even Krile, etc. The only one who's been worse than us when it comes to doing Hydaelyn's bidding was Minfilia. Side note that I don't see how the Scions can claim she wasn't tempered after the tempering of Thordan's Twelve where they retained free will up to the point that they couldn't deny him. If Minfilia wasn't tempered then she was an outright zealot and may as well have screamed "My life for YOU!" when she stayed behind to get caught up in Flow. Anyway. :P

I don't necessarily believe the WoL is tempered, but we have been indoctrinated and groomed. I also don't believe Hydaelyn is good or evil and Venat probably believed in what she was doing, but that doesn't mean the end result wasn't excessive and horrific. The road to Hell is paved with good intentions and all that.

This is all just my opinion based on what I've seen in game. I don't have any expectations of Hydaelyn (or Zodiark) being presented as anything but morally grey specifically because it would tick off a lot of players if that's not the case.

[MikkoAkure]

Minor caveat, Ascians had no involvement in the Dragonsong War. It was Ratatoskr herself who admitted to King Thordan the First of the power of a great wyrm's eyes. So in a way, she brought about her own demise by being perhaps a mite too trusting. It's just as well really, when as we see in the cutscene between Nidhogg and Hraesvelgr Nidhogg never trusted mortals from the start and was honestly (in my eyes at least) waiting for a reason to start shit with the weak races he thought unworthy.

Ah well that's what I get for being lazy and double-checking my memory against the wiki and another reason not to trust it. Still doesn't change the fact that they attempted to use it to their advantage later on though.

[Cleretic]

Kinda stepping back from this whole thing, I'm always wondering how much of the 'Hydaelyn was definitely A Bad Guy and did Bad Things and needs to die' is just people who really want to punch out the biggest figure in the setting. Or perhaps not even 'want to', just 'expect to'.

This has been a thought around my head ever since I first started becoming aware of the theory at all; I think the prime motivation is less genuinely thinking that she's a bad guy that we should fight, and more that because we're in a medium where violence is the primary means of interaction, that a figure like Hydaelyn is ultimately something that we can and will fight, and so there must be a justification for doing so, we just have to find it. I've always felt that's why so many RPGs ultimately have you fight God or Satan (or some analog of such); the writers introduce the cosmology, and people would be mad if they couldn't take a swing at it, so, let's just have it build to that anyway.

I don't even necessarily disagree with it in this case, I do think that ultimately there will be a moment that's seen as 'The Hydaelyn Fight', even if it's not literally punching out the blue rock. I just feel like people are starting at what they think is an inevitability and trying to backtrack to a moral justification.

[Vyrerus]

Bad Faith

That is actually what you and camp Hydaelyn have been doing this entire time, but I mean hey, I get it. You all want a character/deity that doesn't have a moral leg up on the antagonists anymore to actually have that leg up. Self delusion is just the price you have to pay.

They are both really bad. They both gotta go. My arguments are made with that in mind. I'm basically shouting from the roof tops, "Hey, please consider that Hydaelyn is bad. Here's why."

Though I've said it before. I don't think the writers will ever fully embrace, "Hydaelyn bad." They're only going to overtly go as far as, "Hydaelyn sad." That being that all of her worst actions will have been, "incidental." "While trying to obtain the greater good(Her good)." etc. The only real question that remains is will we have to put her to the sword, as she deserves, or will we find her emaciated in a Sharlayan basement to enhance her tragedy?

Also please note that it is impossible to say that Zodiark both created sentient souls that would later be sacrificed to return the summoners, and that he could not bring back those summoners fully. If he's got the power to imbue/create true life, then he certainly has the power to bring it back.

[KageTokage]

With how repeatedly the story has emphasized that the cycle of life and death is something beyond man's control; neither being able to create souls nor restore those that were lost, it would not surprise me at all if the entire reason the Final Days happened in the first place was because some Ancients were trying to overcome that limitation by tampering with the Lifestream until they screwed up on a monumental level that eventually destabilized the entire world.

Trying to use Zodiark to revive those that were lost comes across to me as something that was just being done out of a reckless overestimation of his actual capabilities that was liable to cause far more harm then good...but I suppose we'll just have to see in a couple days.

[Recon1o6]

Hmm, makes me wonder what it was exactly the sharlayans were doing reaching into the aetherial sea with the anti tower.

monitoring the source of the final days if it was caused by tampering with the lifestream would be something they would look into. Examining why everything on the world is mortal when they didn't used to be before the sundering maybe?

[Vyrerus]

...no? Very no, actually. This is abundantly untrue. '

Here's the problem with your assertion. None of those were events that were going to destroy the world.

Ultima Weapon not stopped = Bad times for Eorzea, and perhaps an immediate 8th Calamity.

Thordan not stopped = Ultima had to have been stopped so that events play out the same way, but that means that Zenos has our Echo data and will receive the Resonance procedure, and then will have no trouble stopping Thordan, since that was something he did independently with data given to him by Gaius van Baelsar. Again, no planetary destruction.

I could keep going, but the fact is that none of it amounts to thwarting planetary destruction. It is you who have shifted the goalposts for the protagonists, when the setting has directly spelled out that until Fandaniel, none of the antagonists have been trying to destroy the world. Do it massive harm to enact a weird healing process, yes. Destroy it, no.

[Cleretic]

I could keep going, but the fact is that none of it amounts to thwarting planetary destruction. It is you who have shifted the goalposts for the protagonists, when the setting has directly spelled out that until Fandaniel, none of the antagonists have been trying to destroy the world. Do it massive harm to enact a weird healing process, yes. Destroy it, no.

Your outlook is... so muddled it's nonsense. Apparently a planet-wide cataclysm and near-extinction event doesn't count as 'destroying the planet', ergo Team Hydaelyn haven't stopped any planet destructions? Does saving lives not count unless you're saving literally all the lives?

Do the shards just not count whatsoever to you? Because Team Hydaelyn have confirmably saved at least one (twice over, in fact). Not to mention that every single failed Calamity is a saved shard, at least for a little while, so any rescues in the past also count.

Your Thordan idea is perhaps the crown jewel of lunacy here. Thordan's actual plan (which Team Hydaelyn stopped) was to go primal, then consume the Warring Triad for even more power with which to rule as god-king. That, amped up with Calamity energies, would actually amp up Thordan's power to such a degree that we haven't faced anything near that scale; even Bahamut was only one primal's worth of energy amped into a Calamity, and we only ever fought Bahamut after Phoenix challenged him (and Phoenix lost, too, to both Bahamut then us!). Saying 'Zenos would stop him' is giving the man an absurd amount of credit; remember that his greatest individual combat feat to date has been losing as a dungeon boss. And he couldn't even pull the possession trick, because he can apparently only do that with weak or empty minds; Thordan has Thordan in it, who at that point would probably be able to muscle him out. And even if he couldn't... I mean, that doesn't stop the Calamity, that just means a different imperialist monster is at the helm.

And you didn't get to Eureka, but Eureka could potentially do even worse; by the Students of Baldesion's notes, Eureka could drain the planet of everything, leaving it a cold, lifeless rock in space. So if anything counts as 'saving literally all the lives', it's probably that.

[Lauront]

Anyway... the pro-Zodiark / anti-Hydaelyn camp has all but said verbatim it's arguing in bad faith (as was postulated from the first)

No, they just have different interpretations and opinions on the matter to you. There are a lot of unknowns in the story as it stands, which leads to speculation on it, and not all of us share the same philosophical evaluation of the hypothetical scenario painted. Nothing I have seen in this thread suggests that any "pro-Zodiark" or "anti-Hydaelyn" posters are arguing in bad faith.

Go ask Shanti and her daughter how that worked out for them. There's an ocean's depth of difference between restoring life and restoring a life, let alone hundreds of them.

Ah yes, the fairly weak primal of bliss, vs one created with vast amounts of aether, designed for and tasked with re-establishing the laws of the world, alongside a Convocation member with an affinity to the Underworld and very precise soulsight. I don't think you can really argue they're the same thing. Perhaps there are reasons he couldn't do it, but Lakshmi is a pretty poor example from which to assume Zodiark couldn't do something. Particularly if the souls of the sacrificed are still there inside him.