Season 2 Storyline (another 10 years) [discussion]

[Cleretic]

We've already been there.

All of the architecture and ruins below the Shroud are Gelmorran. Tam Tara Deepcroft, the Mun Tuy Bean place, the ruins up to the east of the Ixali logging camp, PoTD(even comes with Hero of Gelmorra title), Thousand Maw of Totorak, and a couple of inaccessible areas hinted at in 1.0. All ruins, all Gelmorra.

They came out of the ground after learning to commune with the Elementals and founded Gridania.

I mean, I guess if we got a time traveling expansion we could go to Gelmorra when it was a full on subterranean city still teeming with activity. /shrug

To be a bit more direct and less tongue-in-cheek: Gelmorra's a weird one among plot threads, in that we've had sort of the 'beginning teasers' but never any sort of payoff to it.

In 1.0, Gelmorra was clearly being set up as a major element; they had three dungeons (Tam-Tara and Toto-Rak, the Mun-Tuy Cellars were a dungeon then too), there were a bunch of ruins scattered around the Shroud, the endgame currencies were from there, both the history of the Shroud and the history of an entire race is rooted in it. Chances are, they wanted to make it the same sort of story presence that Allag ended up being in the live game, this constant shadowed presence of those who came before. I do think Allag was better suited for that role as an aside, because the intended endgame of 1.0 would've been heavily skewed towards the Shroud, which would kinda suck for anyone who started anywhere else.

But it leaves Gelmorra in a weird spot in the live game, because unlike a lot of the 1.0 setup they threw away like the mystery of Silvertear, Gelmorra couldn't be completely brushed away; there was just too much of it. So as a result we're sort of left with a conspicuous amount of setup for a setting element that has no payoff. A lot of setup for 'this is a place that was real, these are the people that lived there, these are the still-relevant societal issues that stem from this time and place', and then... nothing. Ever. I did a whole video on PotD's lore, and the fact it was Gelmorran (well, a quarter of it was) is basically incidental to the story present about the whole place.

Sure, if there's a time-travel expansion, visiting Gelmorra in its prime would be neat (although I'd expect a time travel expansion to go to the Third or Fifth Astral Eras, not early Sixth), but if that's the only thing you think can be done with it... well, I can tell you're not a desperate and frustrated Duskwight roleplayer, at the very least. There's indication there might still be a Gelmorran population somewhere down there, for one, which certainly has potential. On top of that... while we've been to Gelmorran structures, it's never been because of Gelmorra. We know next to nothing about their actual society, art, techniques, history (beyond 'was there, kinda sucked, then people left', which sounds to me like history written by a Gridanian who wants to marginalize that part of history), anything. And I dunno about you, but 'underground society that thrived despite all above-ground nature literally wanting to murder them' sounds like a really neat setting, especially when you mix in the kinda suspicious history about the Padjali and the not-total migration above ground, which seems to me like something fishy happened.

For all the times we've been there, we've never had an actual Gelmorran story. We've overdue for one!

EDIT: Iscah gets it! It'd be a beautiful setting if they actually took a swing at it outside of the ARR constraints.

[Vyrerus]

WoL Dies Theory

If they were to do that, I imagine it would go something like, we were never a real person to begin with. Just some sort of simulacra or primal-like entity, so when we die, maybe the light is resetting or piloting one of the gods to undo/redo things, and after that we rebirth ourselves as someone real?

Like a Pinocchio story, except we are our own Geppetto? Or in Final Fantasy terms, X into X-2, where Yuna gets a real Tidus out of the deal. Kinda like, idk, the Fayth recreated a man named Shuyin as Tidus to see the events of FFX to their conclusion... perhaps Hydaelyn recreated Azem?

It seems farfetched because of the idea of shard souls and rejoining of the soul, but how hard would it really be to create shard souls tied to a source soul, all sundered but aligned?

[YianKutku]

I really don't know why anybody is thinking this refers to physical distance. I would very much believe this is talking about doing something very extreme and unprecedented with the storyline, something that people can't fathom them actually doing or introducing.

Theorizing what this might be, I'd like to talk about the Endwalker vinyl MV for a moment. First watching it I was left thinking it was a very basic music video for the song, but like I'm sure others have noticed it has some weird hidden symbolism. Firstly, with the fact that it has Yotsuyu.

[snip]

Now, this is wild theory territory here, but I'm going to suggest that all of this is symbolizing nothing less than WoL's own death. That the "THAT far?" we're going to go to is having the player's own character die at the end of the story, in an MMO. From there the next expansion will open with all players being forced to create entirely new alts to play though the new MSQ with. An ARRR if you will.

In all honesty, what I thought you were about to lead up into was that the WoL is going to get isekai-ed into the modern world.

Die in Eorzea, end up in Tokyo...

[Veloran]

If they were to do that, I imagine it would go something like, we were never a real person to begin with. Just some sort of simulacra or primal-like entity, so when we die, maybe the light is resetting or piloting one of the gods to undo/redo things, and after that we rebirth ourselves as someone real?

Like a Pinocchio story, except we are our own Geppetto? Or in Final Fantasy terms, X into X-2, where Yuna gets a real Tidus out of the deal. Kinda like, idk, the Fayth recreated a man named Shuyin as Tidus to see the events of FFX to their conclusion... perhaps Hydaelyn recreated Azem?

It seems farfetched because of the idea of shard souls and rejoining of the soul, but how hard would it really be to create shard souls tied to a source soul, all sundered but aligned?

But why would it be like that? As it is, if WoL were to die the next PC should simply be WoL's reincarnation. It's a very obvious narrative thread that allows players to feel like it's still them. I'm not outing Primaltheory on it's own, but with this it's a pretty left-field idea.

[Vyrerus]

But why would it be like that? As it is, if WoL were to die the next PC should simply be WoL's reincarnation. It's a very obvious narrative thread that allows players to feel like it's still them. I'm not outing Primaltheory on it's own, but with this it's a pretty left-field idea.

Because there's no timestamp on how long it takes to reincarnate after death? I mean, sure that's a free pass for a time skip... but even if it were immediate, we'd take time to grow back up. Then why would we be level 90? It's the only way to solve keeping all of our progress from the last 8 years. Since XIV is a good game, they are not likely to bomb it just for a big story pay off. Not when there's alternatives that still let us "die."

[Veloran]

From what we have learned since 1.0 to 6.0 so far, what do you think this reveal maybe and what it may relate to? Considering this mystery being revealed maybe in 6.0, it certainly may relate to something we already know about but never got a answer to.

To clarify here, Yoshida was talking about revealing a mystery, not revealing the answer to a mystery. So based on that, we might presume that this mystery is something we have absolutely no clue whatsoever about, as it hasn't even been introduced yet.

The only possible candidate that we currently have, I think, would be the Sound. But aside from the fact that we know about it generally, Endwalker seems primed to give a lot of focus to that already given it's the cause of the apocalypse we're supposed to be stopping. It would be a bit strange to merely deal with the symptoms rather than the root issue.

Because there's no timestamp on how long it takes to reincarnate after death? I mean, sure that's a free pass for a time skip... but even if it were immediate, we'd take time to grow back up. Then why would we be level 90? It's the only way to solve keeping all of our progress from the last 8 years. Since XIV is a good game, they are not likely to bomb it just for a big story pay off. Not when there's alternatives that still let us "die."

What I'm suggesting is that you would not keep all of your progress. You would in effect be creating an alt character and starting the game anew, from a new level 1, from a new point in time after Endwalker.

Maybe if they iron out some of the spaghetti code they could implement accountwide mount/pet/glamour unlocks, but basically I'm saying it's a clean break.

[Vyrerus]

cheek in tongue

I mean, I don't have anything against seeing Gelmorra, but it really does only apply to the Shroud and one specific time period. There's not a lot to work with there, in overall story terms, and people who didn't play 1.0 and don't play Duskwights aren't invested. Maybe we'll find the plothread of subterranean civilization visited/lifted with less stone work and more sci-fi in Endwalker in Labyrinthos for under Sharlayan.

I had a Duskwight character for a while that I named a Dark Souls reference. He's an alt back up for my LP character now, though. We at least know that the Mun Tuy Beans were a Gelmorran staple, since the big thing about them is that they need no sunlight to grow and are described as Duskwight food (That everyone loves).

[Vyrerus]

basically I'm saying it's a clean break.

Yes, I understood what you were saying. That's why I said they have no compelling reason to do it. When they blew up 1.0 it wasn't just for story reasons, and that was only blowing up like 2.5 years of gameplay time... and not completely because they till transported Legacy characters into 2.0 w/ levels intact, right?

I'm saying the Pinocchio schtick is the only way we're getting a WoL death, because people are too invested in who their characters are right now. Not too mention the almost decade spent on them.

While it would be cool if they had the balls to do that, they don't even have the balls to kill Y'shtola so... just not seeing it as likely beyond a Tidus situation.

[Veloran]

Yes, I understood what you were saying. That's why I said they have no compelling reason to do it. When they blew up 1.0 it wasn't just for story reasons, and that was only blowing up like 2.5 years of gameplay time... and not completely because they till transported Legacy characters into 2.0 w/ levels intact, right?

I'm saying the Pinocchio schtick is the only way we're getting a WoL death, because people are too invested in who their characters are right now. Not too mention the almost decade spent on them.

While it would be cool if they had the balls to do that, they don't even have the balls to kill Y'shtola so... just not seeing it as likely beyond a Tidus situation.

There are plenty of non-story reasons to do it as well, I think. The game could use a few major overhauls and updates in a number of areas, including the endlessly mounting issue of the consecutive MSQ. It's not exactly a "problem" per-say, and is arguably a strength of the game on the whole, but the huge five expansion content grind to get to what is supposedly supposed to be an entirely new saga is quite a daunting prospect. I mean we're supposed to have a new mystery with a new core cast of characters, so why have ten years of the previous saga to surmount before even getting to that?

Moreover, I really think the Primal thing is not a good idea. It's one thing to say, "WoL reincarnated so it's still your WoL", and quite another to say that WoL never existed to begin with and to play as "WoL but really this time". I mean who really liked the Shuyin/Tidus thing in FFX-2? Everything I've seen points to people thinking it cheapens Tidus' story and character for the sake of a new character that wasn't as well liked by a long shot. Obviously the situation isn't the same, but it's not a great example. Even the Primal theory on it's own would be better.

[KageTokage]

If Yoshi P wasn't referring to physical distance, I'm assuming it's going to dig up and focus on some plot points from 1.0/2.0 that a lot of people might've forgotten about by this point.

The relics of Seal Rock (Which were decidedly not Allagan despite being found at an Allagan depository) and the mystery of Silvertear Lake are two things that are still ill-explained to this day and both things I could see being linked to a bigger issue eventually, plus we still don't know where the Heart of Sabik vanished off to...