Are some jobs 'too feminine' in aesthetics?

[PlushyprincessMusa]

Honestly with how few things stay the same on both genders with genderlocked items. I think more shoupd be extremely feminine short skirt tank tops, long socks...

As it stands i almost feel like ill have to make a deal with a modder to trick the game into thinking bunnyboy is female so i have complete options.. Shisui set being different angers me greatly. And on mog station theres like 3 items that arent that are feminine.. People say they changed some but they didnt

[andrealfus]

nah.

/thread

[Alaray]

I mean masculine aesthetics refer to clothing and armor that flatter the male frame. Hallmarks of this include broad chest and shoulders aswell as projecting a sense of strength and power. Heavy armor tends to this very well.

Those things aren't inherently masculine traits, there's so many different variations of body type that limiting the expression unto one form of it is kind of myopic. Things that look flattering on men, can look flattering on women for similar reasons (broad shoulders, chest) and strength + power also aren't inherently masculine and are features that can be, also, just as well applied to female characters. There's a particular aesthetic there, but to call it masculine is shortsighted when speaking of design as a whole. Especially when, in XIV at least, a lot of jobs tend to encompass a particular aesthetic theme that their armor (generally AF) tries to compliment, exemplify and embody.

From a standpoint of AF gear, designing heavy plate for a WHM is probably awkward. Not to say that there couldn't be designs that are somewhat plate-like for healers, but the people who are otherwise fine with the overall aesthetic of the role/class they chose are going to dislike designs that depart heavily from that fantasy and the same is true for people who don't like the base aesthetic of those classes. Even so, there are a lot of glamour options in the game (like replica variant sets, intermixed with modern sets, intermixed with story reward outfits, intermixed with cash shop options) that can be utilized to create a wide variety of armor aesthetics that tailors to particular player tastes. Same goes for the majority of classes in the game -- you can, if a player desires, dress up a DRK like it has a PLD aesthetic, or a more casual aesthetic, or a more sexy aesthetic, or a more power-fantasy aesthetic, etc...

But I don't think DRK AF gear that, say, puts a miniskirt on the character and has a massive chest window with a white and pink color scheme would go over well for the people who pick and play that job for it's base aesthetic theme. Regardless of gender.

Wanting less robe options for healers/casters is fine, though saying more "Masculine attire" is still ultimately a meaningless phrase because it can mean so many different things. Especially when, in the same vein, if a male set was designed to accentuate the male form in a more sexy style, people tend to claim that's also not masculine. Which, it is. It's just not the particular aesthetic they necessarily want for their male character -- be it wanting more power fantasy appearances, more traditional knight appearances, rugged appearances etc...

And, what you described, are things players I know -- many of them, including myself -- want for female characters. With a more lean towards sets that lean into a power fantasy at times, sets that look like they came off a metal album cover, sets that look more noble and knightly. I generally prefer these sorts of aesthetics for female characters I play, just as I tend to prefer the opposite styles of aesthetics when I play male characters. It's one reason I generally like the majority of the Samurai PvP set with that dragon helmet (albeit, minus the helmet).

It's just muddying the waters of discussion to limit the terminology to "masculine" and "feminine" when, inherently, no design or color combination belongs to either (and different people -- individually, culturally, socially -- will have different expectations for what both of those mean). There's just been particular skews towards specific aesthetic archetypes that appear on depictions of women/men in media due to the frequency with which they appear. Getting into more specifics with design is, generally, going to be the more valuable style of feedback/criticism.

[Iscah]

I was in this discussion as well, and i don’t see why i can’t raise my complaints up. Especially when many people seem to share the sentiments that i bring up time and time again. You decided to bring up something completely unrelated to the overall discussion by taking a dig at me which is just completely disrespectful and harmful to the thread discussion as a whole. Again, i find it interesting it’s mainly female character saying they don’t see an issue with the feminine glams lmao. There’s a constant favoritism for them and i’ve given numerous examples for it. If you choose to purposely be on lupus to it that’s on you. But to derail the discussion and take a dig at another poster is just rude and unprofessional. I expected more from you considering how often you post.

I apologise for bringing up your outfit. I shouldn't have.

But as I keep saying when you repeat your observation that it's "female characters who don't have a problem with feminine glamour", I have characters of both genders, and the way I dress one has no bearing on the others. You can't tell how many other people in the discussion also have alts of the other gender.

You can dress your healer in masculine outfits. You can dress your healer as 9S. You can be a field medic or an armoured knight or Late Allagan tech support. You're not restricted to only wearing feminine outfits even with healer-specific gear, and you can widen the net further by mixing with all-class gear.

(Admittedly a fair few of my male healer glamours revolve around an all-class body piece mixed with job-specific pieces, but it still comes down to a unique healer-specific outfit. I don't keep score of where they came from, I just know they look great.)

The other thing I've noticed from playing with multiple characters is that things may not look good "on men" but but look excellent on men of a specific race because of the different body shapes and how pieces of the outfit have been scaled to fit.

[Iscah]

Ravel Keepers is a standout, for not only is it's aesthetic quite feminine, there look to be no alterations to the top, which is quite obviously meant for a female. The White Mage set, is very obviously designed for a female; it's design is that of a Nun.

...

I didn't think I'd have to explain the Ravel Keeper top, but that's a bra. I digress.

I'm not sure about their intentions with the Ravel set, but it's worth noting that it isn't just a player gearset but the clothing worn by the Night's Blessed. (The Viis tribe wear the DPS Ravel set but nobody to my awareness uses the more masculine tank set.)

The question then is, does the gear first get designed as NPC gear and then added to the dungeon to get more use out of it, or does it get designed for the dungeon first and the story character designers just have to take what the costume designer came up with in isolation?

It seems more logical to design for NPCs first, and if so then they opted to give those outfits to both genders.

I don't think the top looks like a bra though. I take more issue with the heavy skirt that makes it difficult to do much else with the outfit. I'm surprised that they didn't do at least one variant without.

As for the white mage set, I do agree that their relics have an issue with being too feminine, but the only part that looks nun-like is the hood, and that only because of the second hair-covering layer of fabric under it – which is a design restriction rather than a choice of the artist, because the game can't handle showing just the front part of the hair without the rest. I think they're trying to get at the classic white mage hooded cloak but the game doesn't let them.

Of course, even without the hood it has something of a bride theme to it, but it's worth noting that the male version does have some differences like the hip armour and less lace.

Also, puzzlingly, the female version has three-quarter sleeves that look awful compared to the full-length version on the male version. If anything there is a confusing pattern of designing a good feminine outfit that they put on the men, and then the women get a version with weird changes like the aforementioned sleeves or the awful fan collar that made the level 70 robe nigh-unwearable.

All that said, I have seen some cool takes on the Ebers robe like this one (dyed black with plainer gloves and pants underneath). I want to try mixing it with armour pieces.

[_Koneko_]

so what i gather from this is that your saying op that robes are femine wow i always knew the pope was secretly a girl or the cardinals for that matter joking aside some of the most powerful people in our world who are male wear robes ... they must be super femine in fact you should travel to the middle east and tell them look like girls because they wear robes ...

*snickers to herself*

History is full of people who have worn the robe it's a power symbol through history Emperors, Kings, Popes and other figures of power have worn robes but you say its femine huh

[RobynDaBank]

so what i gather from this is that your saying op that robes are femine wow i always knew the pope was secretly a girl or the cardinals for that matter joking aside some of the most powerful people in our world who are male wear robes ... they must be super femine in fact you should travel to the middle east and tell them look like girls because they wear robes ...

*snickers to herself*

History is full of people who have worn the robe it's a power symbol through history Emperors, Kings, Popes and other figures of power have worn robes but you say its femine huh

Not wanting to start any arguments about genders or who can wear what, etc.

I had a conversation with a friend earlier who was complaining about White Mage in Endwalker because they believe the AF is too 'dress-like' again, and that many of the animations are 'too feminine' for him - such as the huge lily for Holy 3 and the (in my opinion very cute) heart-shaped lilybell for the Lilybell level 90 skill.

Oddly smug for someone claiming they summed up OP's intentions when so much of it got ignored. /shrug

[_Koneko_]

Oddly smug for someone claiming they summed up OP's intentions when so much of it got ignored. /shrug

it's even odder that you would take offense on behalf of the op when most of my post was in jest and some historical facts

[SturmChurro]

It's just muddying the waters of discussion to limit the terminology to "masculine" and "feminine" when, inherently, no design or color combination belongs to either (and different people -- individually, culturally, socially -- will have different expectations for what both of those mean). There's just been particular skews towards specific aesthetic archetypes that appear on depictions of women/men in media due to the frequency with which they appear. Getting into more specifics with design is, generally, going to be the more valuable style of feedback/criticism.

There is a clear difference in aesthetic design, and most people understand what people mean by "feminine" design. Would people prefer different terms for the different aesthetics instead, since this is apparently a touchy subject?

...

Either way, there are many designs that are feminine in concept, and/or have parts of said sets that look to be designed with the female form in mind specifically. It's like looking at a muscle cuirass from real world history, that is designed for the male form.

In classical antiquity, the muscle cuirass (Latin: lorica musculata), anatomical cuirass, or heroic cuirass is a type of cuirass made to fit the wearer's torso and designed to mimic an idealized male human physique.

With that example of that customized Ebers robe, the player has tried to mitigate these features, by removing the pieces that are overtly feminine, it seems.

[Burmecia]

Real men don't put too much stock into what they wear at all unless its business related. They tend to value substance over style.

I dare to think these motherduckers were seen appropriately manly in their own time.