Sage quick mechanics overview

[inhaledcorn]

We don't really need to redesign Adder's Sting in order for it to flow though. Literally all we have to do is buff the potency to 660, and bam. It works. The DPS is the same as 2 casts of Dosis III, and you get a heal and barrier out of it.

I'd also be cool with separating Toxikon and Toxikon II into ST and AoE spenders. Change Toxikon II's potency to 340 with no drop off and use Toxikon I as a 660 potency single target action. It's a darn shame that animation is going to waste.

Maybe have Eurkasia affect Toxicon to make it AoE? I dunno, just an idea.

[baklava151]

We don't really need to redesign Adder's Sting in order for it to flow though. Literally all we have to do is buff the potency to 660, and bam. It works. The DPS is the same as 2 casts of Dosis III, and you get a heal and barrier out of it.

I'd also be cool with separating Toxikon and Toxikon II into ST and AoE spenders. Change Toxikon II's potency to 340 with no drop off and use Toxikon I as a 660 potency single target action. It's a darn shame that animation is going to waste.

I agree at the very least they should buff Toxicon, but I was more focused on Eukrasia in that post since it seems like wasted potential for an interesting skill. The Toxicon part just built off that

[Sighearth]

Literally all they need to do is double the potency to 660 and suddenly, even though it's DPS neutral, you're still getting a heal and barrier out of that which is increasing healer DPS indirectly and thus ultimately something you want to prioritize. Would actually make a significant difference in Sage's playstyle that not only would help in giving veterans more skill expression, but also doesn't pressure casual play in any way.

I don't think it can be dps neutral, if so SGE would have basically free gcd shields (that can be buffed with zoe and etc) + free movement most of the fight. They should do it like ruin 2 is for sch a slight potency loss. Something like 580 potency (80 potency loss) so you can move, weave and have a nice shield but you can't spam it.

[ty_taurus]

I don't think it can be dps neutral, if so SGE would have basically free gcd shields (that can be buffed with zoe and etc) + free movement most of the fight. They should do it like ruin 2 is for sch a slight potency loss. Something like 580 potency (80 potency loss) so you can move, weave and have a nice shield but you can't spam it.

That's not entirely true because in order to get the sting in the first place, the barrier must break. The system was taken directly from the Dark Knight. To explain it briefly, DRK uses their MP on OGCD actions for added damage and maintaining a self DPS buff: Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, both of which costs 3000 MP. They also have The Blackest Night, which is a single-target barrier they can place on themselves or an ally. Since it consumes 3000 MP as well, that means it's a DPS loss on its own, but if the barrier breaks, their next Flood of Shadow or Edge of Shadow is free. Since this is all OGCD, that makes The Blackest Night DPS neutral with a barrier as the cherry on top, but if you use it at the wrong time, the barrier wont' break before the buff timer runs out and you don't get that free FoS/EoS.

In other words, the system rewards well-timed barriers with a DPS return, and the same could be true for Toxikon. Keep in mind you also don't want to overwrite that barrier or you've lost your Adder's Sting before you've gained it, and I imagine Pepsis will also prevent you from gaining a Sting. Eukrasia Diagnosis is also MP expensive. This isn't a big issue now because SCH almost never actually casts Adloquium/Succor, but if you're trying to maximize uptime on barriers for that purpose, it could end up drying your MP up. We can't say this will or won't be a concern yet since we don't know how regularly you'll be able to realistically trigger a String, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now, if we do make it DPS neutral, than that actually opens up a very important door for Sage gameplay in a way where everyone wins. It makes casual play more forgiving because even if you're not using your barriers optimally, you will at least gain some Stings to recoup your lost DPS (even if you don't care about that, it is still benefiting you). Meanwhile more experienced players are now actively looking for opportunities to use a GCD over DPSing which is exactly what so many people want since you have only to gain from a well-timed E. Diagnosis.

This kind of experience is literally what everyone wants, developers included. If they can recognize that and buff the damage, we'll be on a fantastic road forward.

[NobleWinter]

Imagine healers being rewarded for healing. We are currently begging for healing skills to be dps neutral but that is kind sad really. Why can't our healing skills have interactions within the kits that make them dps positive? 4 Glare should not be better than Afflatus Healing and Misery. If healers are gonna prioritize healing GCD's (especially preemptive shields) it should have a direct link to better damage options.

[ty_taurus]

Imagine healers being rewarded for healing. We are currently begging for healing skills to be dps neutral but that is kind sad really. Why can't our healing skills have interactions within the kits that make them dps positive? 4 Glare should not be better than Afflatus Healing and Misery. If healers are gonna prioritize healing GCD's (especially preemptive shields) it should have a direct link to better damage options.

It depends a bit on the situation. If we make DPS gained through healing DPS positive, then we run the risk of situations like Assize where the healing becomes a non-sequitur. It's more important to keep the CD moving than to save it for healing purposes. Afflatus Misery is probably the best example of a DPS action through healing that should be DPS positive. There's a bit of a risk in encouraging players to throw away their lilies, but since lilies are on a timer, you don't need to burn them as they arise and can afford to wait for the healing to be necessary. I think we could also just have more interesting interactions with lilies where we can nourish the blood lily at less of a loss or no loss with specific action order to gain rather than lose.

For Toxikon, I think it's important to keep it neutral rather than a gain. There's a bit of a joke that's not entirely a joke where you pretty much don't want E. Diagnosis to crit because that makes the barrier harder to break, and Toxikon being a gain would exacerbate the situation. It also means SGE's DPS gets worse the more you out gear a fight because you'll be pumping out larger shields that would take longer to break and thus your Toxikon generation would slow at higher ilvls.

Having it be neutral though does still encourage us to use barriers frequently since you're burning an extra 600 MP at intervals to heal and barrier an ally alongside your normal damage rather than just getting the damage, which even if you're only getting the barrier out of the deal, is still a minor gain indirectly than a direct Dosis III, not to mention the mobility factor.

[Sighearth]

That's not entirely true because in order to get the sting in the first place, the barrier must break. The system was taken directly from the Dark Knight. To explain it briefly, DRK uses their MP on OGCD actions for added damage and maintaining a self DPS buff: Flood of Shadow and Edge of Shadow, both of which costs 3000 MP. They also have The Blackest Night, which is a single-target barrier they can place on themselves or an ally. Since it consumes 3000 MP as well, that means it's a DPS loss on its own, but if the barrier breaks, their next Flood of Shadow or Edge of Shadow is free. Since this is all OGCD, that makes The Blackest Night DPS neutral with a barrier as the cherry on top, but if you use it at the wrong time, the barrier wont' break before the buff timer runs out and you don't get that free FoS/EoS.

In other words, the system rewards well-timed barriers with a DPS return, and the same could be true for Toxikon. Keep in mind you also don't want to overwrite that barrier or you've lost your Adder's Sting before you've gained it, and I imagine Pepsis will also prevent you from gaining a Sting. Eukrasia Diagnosis is also MP expensive. This isn't a big issue now because SCH almost never actually casts Adloquium/Succor, but if you're trying to maximize uptime on barriers for that purpose, it could end up drying your MP up. We can't say this will or won't be a concern yet since we don't know how regularly you'll be able to realistically trigger a String, but it's worth keeping in mind.

Now, if we do make it DPS neutral, than that actually opens up a very important door for Sage gameplay in a way where everyone wins. It makes casual play more forgiving because even if you're not using your barriers optimally, you will at least gain some Stings to recoup your lost DPS (even if you don't care about that, it is still benefiting you). Meanwhile more experienced players are now actively looking for opportunities to use a GCD over DPSing which is exactly what so many people want since you have only to gain from a well-timed E. Diagnosis.

This kind of experience is literally what everyone wants, developers included. If they can recognize that and buff the damage, we'll be on a fantastic road forward.

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

[inhaledcorn]

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

You realize it's basically impossible to 100% sustain shields due to the mp cost? You learn that pretty quickly on SCH, and that's going to be true on SGE.

[Laphicet]

The most important thing you are forgetting is the duration of the shields, TBN is 7s duration while diagnosis is 30s. Not only that but TBN still have a cd. With a 30s duration with no cd, you don't need "well timed shields" at all, just keep shielding the mt for free sustain with no dps loss, 1 auto is enough to break a shield. That sustain would make tb/autos irrelevant. Also, free movement 100% of the time would make healers optimization boring. No risk vs reward, another healer depth removed, it would get old super fast. In the case of DRK the window is tight enough that is a risk of potency loss by using TBN but also the shield itself is huge, way harder to break than adlo/diagnosis. With dps neutral toxicon, we get TBN for babies with no risk + free movement + free sustain all for the price of nothing.

Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

[ty_taurus]

Here's the problem. As others have pointed out (and I was corrected about), Toxikon is a DPS loss. Not neutral, a loss. You have no reason to use a GCD shield to fish for it as that would just result in you losing out on two dosis only to get back one dosis if the shield breaks. It's better to rely on your OGCDs instead and pretend the mechanic doesn't exist. That's not too good design now, is it? If they made it neutral you'd have a reason to go for it due to the movement, and in spite of what you're saying it wouldn't be constant movement since you'd still need to wait for the shield to break, as early refreshing and pepsis don't give you addersting. Plus if the shield never broke you'd still waste a GCD. The only time you'd use it with the current design would be if you ran out of OGCDs to use, and that's already an awful situation to be in.

Actually he was arguing against the idea making Toxikon DPS neutral, not describing an existing "issue" with it. I brought up how making it neutral would make Sage's gameplay far more fluid and fun, and he fears that if they did make it neutral, it would make Sage's spam barrier on the tank.