I really hope than Fandaniel and Zenos are not... (spoilers)

[Rokke]

I feel a little like I'm taking crazy pills since I see these sorts of comments everywhere. Even at the Stinger of SHB he was panicking and getting angry and impulsive, and he continues more impulsive plans and the like throughout the next patches despite keeping a facade of civility and calculation that keeps breaking every time he talks to you. There are plenty of times I feel like the creators clearly changed their plans around (I think that Amarout wasn't always going to be quite so utopian, for instance, and that Stormblood was originally going to have Minfilia as the main character instead of Lyse) but there's a pretty clear throughline between the calm Elidibus and the one we see by 5.3 after all of his plans have been failing left and right and everyone he knows and loves is dead.

The issue I have with it is that his appearances in .1 and .2 are so small when the focus is instead on fluff. Him encouraging adventurers was good, yes, but it was blips in the background. Did we need to help Eulmore set up their government for a whole patch? Could we not have trusted them to figure it out, if not by themselves then with their new allies in the other settlements? We were left with one singular patch to sink our teeth into the badguy we'd been teased over and over's story and then he's dead and then the exarch is dead then the exarch isn't dead then we're home and everything is good the end credits roll. The pacing is slow and then it is breakneck and then the ride is over.

[CaesarCV]

I think I get what you mean there a bit better. Admittedly my experience may have been influenced a bit by also taking a break from the game and then playing through the patches more in short succession. I played 5.1 and then 5.2-3 in sequence, meaning I got to see the whole storyline without as much in the way of interruption. I get the idea of not letting the story breathe, even if personally I felt it was paced rather well. Maybe I just like rapid pacing in stories sometimes or something like that.

...Honestly I feel like the Eulmore governmental stuff could have been done a bit better too. I wanted to see some more pushback from the population at their entire civilization being uprooted and altered, but at the same time I recognize the story importance of 'wrapping up the plot thread' as it were so they can focus on the Elidibus/other 1st stuff.

[KizuyaKatogami]

The issue I have with it is that his appearances in .1 and .2 are so small when the focus is instead on fluff. Him encouraging adventurers was good, yes, but it was blips in the background. Did we need to help Eulmore set up their government for a whole patch? Could we not have trusted them to figure it out, if not by themselves then with their new allies in the other settlements? We were left with one singular patch to sink our teeth into the badguy we'd been teased over and over's story and then he's dead and then the exarch is dead then the exarch isn't dead then we're home and everything is good the end credits roll. The pacing is slow and then it is breakneck and then the ride is over.

This is well put yeah. I’d also like to add, as much as i have but i just wanna repeat it. It also didn’t help with the fact that in this expansion we took on the strongest foes yet we ever have, yet they all come out unscathed. But in SB zenos was able to stab yshtola, she survived sure but he at least wounded her and she was out of commission for most of the expansion. We didn’t even get that with Emet nor Elidibus who are literal unsundered. It’s why Elidibus just felt so off in SB as well now that we know he’s a primal. He could’ve killed us by just using the faith of garleans but nope. Instead we get rescued by estinien of all people. We basically did get an equivalence of 1-2 patches of him and then he’s killed off. It’s rushed and it’s sad seeing that he’s from a storyline that’s been really from 1.0.

[CaesarCV]

I mean, I think that maybe you're focusing a little too much on the literal consequences of fights (IE, Injuries) and not on the more emotional outcomes of the storylines. A LOT has changed about our characters and their understanding of the world throughout Shadowbringers. Thancred had a ton of development, Alisae and Alphinaud changed, even Urianger got a chance to chill out while the Exarch managed to find a wonderful new lease on life. Our own PCs now have an entirely different outlook on their place in the situation. A LOT happened that will affect the future, even if nobody died or whatever.

And like, is getting faith just from Garleans so much stronger than getting faith and hope from entire planes? If you wanted a "Garlean Primal" there's probably better mechanics to do so than to use Elidibus for it. (Honestly with the Telophoroi I think there's a good chance of us getting a Primal version of Garlemald as a nation or maybe Solus).

[Lauront]

Beautifully tragic, in a way there's a part of me that wishes we could've worked alongside them, but I guess that's what makes such a great couple of "villains".

I'll agree about that much. I wouldn't mind a rival character, but Zenos isn't it for me.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I mean, I think that maybe you're focusing a little too much on the literal consequences of fights (IE, Injuries) and not on the more emotional outcomes of the storylines. A LOT has changed about our characters and their understanding of the world throughout Shadowbringers. Thancred had a ton of development, Alisae and Alphinaud changed, even Urianger got a chance to chill out while the Exarch managed to find a wonderful new lease on life. Our own PCs now have an entirely different outlook on their place in the situation. A LOT happened that will affect the future, even if nobody died or whatever.

And like, is getting faith just from Garleans so much stronger than getting faith and hope from entire planes? If you wanted a "Garlean Primal" there's probably better mechanics to do so than to use Elidibus for it. (Honestly with the Telophoroi I think there's a good chance of us getting a Primal version of Garlemald as a nation or maybe Solus).

My point isn’t that i wanted a garlean primal or anything, but it’s the fact that he at any point in our fight could’ve drawn on the power of the faith of the garleans and could’ve easily struck us down, if the writing is meant to be taken as consistent that is, he'd jhave been a primal this entire time. That’s what made it apparent they didn’t plan on him being some primal. He also could’ve just tempered varis and had him unleash black rose immediately as opposed to the delay Varis had. My point regarding the consequences though is, yes i’m focusing on it, because it doesn’t do these characters justice at all. Emet and Elidibus both should’ve cost long lasting consequences or issues but didn’t. Instead this entire expansion we’ve had things handed to us. Tempering cure, Exarch living, battles won due to random plot devices etc. None of it felt earned. Honestly i could care less for the scions at this point. The amount of plot armor they all have is astronomical, not to mention the whole Graha soul thing goes against the idea they’re trying to push in the story of “move forward toward the future.” Yet it was looking to the past that allowed ironworks to undo the calamity. Just things like this where it’s okay for the protags to do it and they succeed but it’s deemed bad when the antagonists do it and they always fail with 0 repercussions to the protags. It makes the story dull and bland knowing we’re always going to win. We had more losses in ARR and HW against people that didn’t even compare to Elidibus and Emet. It just makes them seem less than they actually are.

[Lauront]

My point isn’t that i wanted a garlean primal or anything, but it’s the fact that he at any point in our fight could’ve drawn on the power of the faith of the garleans and could’ve easily struck us down, if the writing is meant to be taken as consistent that is, he'd jhave been a primal this entire time. That’s what made it apparent they didn’t plan on him being some primal. He also could’ve just tempered varis and had him unleash black rose immediately as opposed to the delay Varis had. My point regarding the consequences though is, yes i’m focusing on it, because it doesn’t do these characters justice at all. Emet and Elidibus both should’ve cost long lasting consequences or issues but didn’t. Instead this entire expansion we’ve had things handed to us. Tempering cure, Exarch living, battles won due to random plot devices etc. None of it felt earned. Honestly i could care less for the scions at this point. The amount of plot armor they all have is astronomical, not to mention the whole Graha soul thing goes against the idea they’re trying to push in the story of “move forward toward the future.” Yet it was looking to the past that allowed ironworks to undo the calamity. Just things like this where it’s okay for the protags to do it and they succeed but it’s deemed bad when the antagonists do it and they always fail with 0 repercussions to the protags. It makes the story dull and bland knowing we’re always going to win. We had more losses in ARR and HW against people that didn’t even compare to Elidibus and Emet. It just makes them seem less than they actually are.

The funniest was the teased Lyse in trouble scene, with the trailer for the next patch alone showing she was fine.

[Kozh]

Snip

I consider myself as "thematic/emotional"-focused person too, but imo ShB lean too much on the Feels™. After the Feels™ wear off, you can see all the flaws. Things I deemed as flaws:

1) they listen to the vocal fans too much. Most obviously is g'raha living, second is about minfilia actually. We all know that she needs more character development, they know it too. Yet probably because of the vocal haters, they instead made ryne in attempt to "start over". This strike me as them either afraid of the backlash, or just generally lazy for not even trying.

2) like others have pointed out, sometimes the plot can be hypocrite, as in it's okay for the good guys to do it, but not okay if others do it (i.e the Ironworks of the doomed time-line who instead of using technology to survive they focused more on going back to the past. What about all the people who doesn't know or want the project to happen?)

3) at first I thought 5.1 and 5.2 as badly paced, yet after experiencing again, I can see that it's actually 5.3 that threw it all away. In 5.1 & 5.2, it seems that elidibus wanted to cause a flood of light again with the WoL plotline, but it's abandoned in 5.3. In 5.2 yes elidibus confront us, but we never see him losing control. The "elidibus losing his mind" and him being primal/zodiark heart plot is introduced in 5.3. It's also a missed chance in giving a grey morality for the hero by making all the WoLs avatar to be only projections of their faith. Imagine if we really do have to kill all those heroes from another world, or if he forced us to fight the First WoLs.

[Terin]

As far as "the Scions kill TONS of people" thing, something I've noticed VERY distinctly about FFXIV, which is completely different from something like WoW, is often "killing" enemies isn't "killing" at all, but simply "defeating". I forget where it was, but I remember initially being quite confused, because I remember seeing enemies I'd just killed turn up in the next cutscene. So a lot of times, I see it more as "knocking them out" more than "literally KILLING them". Although, I did really love the mirror being pointed at us before facing off with Emet-Selch, essentially painting us as monstrous tyrants that decimate anyone that get in our way.

Honestly though, the Devs have given me every reason to have complete faith in their vision so far. A few odd nitpicks aside, Shadowbringers was so much more interesting and ambitious than an MMO expansion has any right to be, and honestly, I'm personally stoked that G'raha didn't kick the bucket. It was heavily foreshadowed that he WOULD, it was a pleasant twist to see him make it -- and honestly, he's probably my favorite Scion now. I would probably agree, though, that Shadowbringers could've done with a real "loss". I kind of feel like Endwalker might lean more that direction.

One thing I'm quite curious of, though, is thus far, FFXIV has done a great job of making the ENTIRE world feel relevant. I can't see how they would be The First relevant to the story moving forward, though. I just hope it isn't a case of "okay, THAT'S all done, now let's never talk about it again".

[Catwho]

We are probably going to have to defeat and fight Hydalaen herself too. Maybe as the key to unlocking Zodiark so that he can be fought and defeated for good.