Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

[LittleImp]

The funny thing is, most of the times I've personally encountered "you pull it, you tank it" in game, the person getting 'punished' pulled the mobs on accident simply because they didn't realize that the tank had already stopped. Most people that are supportive of this mentality literally go out of their way to try to read malicious intentions into peoples actions just so that they can go on a righteous power-trip.

Most normal, well adjusted people wouldn't even spend energy fantasizing about how they would 'punish' someone that pulled extra mobs. I've noticed a lot of the people that try to engage in this behavior spend a bunch of time actively fantasizing about it before it even happens, see: this thread.

As a tank main, it's just hilarious and sad to watch. Grow up, press your two aoe buttons and pop some CDs. Stop intentionally griefing parties because you are shopping for reasons to get butthurt and engage in a power-fantasy.

[KizuyaKatogami]

I don't want to act like this is some kind of "gotcha" moment, because you generously offered this of your own free will, but it's pretty much exactly how I assume these scenarios with "toxic" tanks and Healers on this forum go down.

Basically... "Forum healer runs ahead and pulls... Forum Healer tries to Rescue pull tank to force it... When that doesn't work Forum Healer just sits there healing himself while the rest of the group goes back to where the tank is... Tank acknowledges he's not comfortable with big pulls and asks politely that Forum Healer doesn't do that... Rest of the group agrees to let the tank keep a pace he's comfortable with... Forum healer whines and insults the group like a simp before bailing... Forum healer runs to the forums for affirmations from other Forum Healers who behave the same way as him in groups."

Thank you for this.

I genuinely want to know if you’re trolling at this point or not. There is no excuse for a tank to not mass pull in an endgame dungeon. No excuse unless that person has a major disability. Them “not feeling comfortable” i can guarantee is due to people like you enabling this kind of behavior. It’s ridiculous that you and others continue to enable people to do their roles half-assed, wasting other people’s time and then go and try to say the person asking for them to play their role to the best of their ability is being “toxic.” God this community i swear.

There are other factors. The tank could have felt under geared if they don't main tank or have been away for awhile and are trying to catch up gear wise. It's far worse when tanks are under geared for a duty and try to do big pulls just to melt 3 seconds after the the healer's MP flatlines because they had to mash all their heals and cooldowns during the pull. To me that chat log just looks like someone leaving a duty as a tantrum because they didn't get their way. Which basically means you chose to have a 30 minute penalty because you didn't want to take a few extra minutes clearing a duty. So if the complaint is about having a 30 minute penalty for abandoning the duty that would be on you alone and no one else.

This horrible excuse is getting real old. There is no "being undergeared" in an endgame dungeon.These dungeons are deliberately made in such a way that they can be mass pulled being at simply the required IL. Healer mp flatlining? If the healer has made it to level 8- endgame dungeons, they should know their kit. Even with an undergeared tank in a lvl 80 dungeon, especially on whm, the healer shouldnt even need to use a gcd heal.

[Titania40]

As I mentioned, when playing a healer I have the policy of "I can't heal stupid, and refuse to try so stick with the group." It's my job to keep the party on their feet while beating the enemy into the ground as quickly as possible, but healing takes a higher priority then dps.

When I play DPS, it's my job to stick with the group and beat enemies into the ground as quickly as possible.

When I play a tank, it's my job to stick with the group and keep as much aggro focused on me as possible so the others can do their jobs. Part of that involves dealing damage. But it's my job to use all of my kit. If I don't feel confident in my ability to hold aggro against more then 3 or 4 enemies, I will mention this at the start of the run. If someone on the team ignores my warning, and decides to pull more then I can manage to tank, I will still at least try to tank it. I wont be worried about protecting whoever pulled the adds (unless they are the healer), but I will try to keep the team alive.

This whole idea of "if you pull, I refuse to tank" is toxic and really should stop.

[FrogDog]

I don't want to act like this is some kind of "gotcha" moment, because you generously offered this of your own free will, but it's pretty much exactly how I assume these scenarios with "toxic" tanks and Healers on this forum go down.

Basically... "Forum healer runs ahead and pulls... Forum Healer tries to Rescue pull tank to force it... When that doesn't work Forum Healer just sits there healing himself while the rest of the group goes back to where the tank is... Tank acknowledges he's not comfortable with big pulls and asks politely that Forum Healer doesn't do that... Rest of the group agrees to let the tank keep a pace he's comfortable with... Forum healer whines and insults the group like a simp before bailing... Forum healer runs to the forums for affirmations from other Forum Healers who behave the same way as him in groups."

Thank you for this.

The only thing I would say the tank was in the wrong for would be not even attempting to help. I managed to heal myself through one group pretty easily which highlights that a tank isn't needed for single pulls. A tank single pulling is on par with just running with a Trust at that point, wouldn't you think?

Would it be ok for a healer or dps to show the same kind of intransigence on issues of meta gameplay? Would you be fine with a DPS refusing to AoE because it makes them "uncomfortable"? What if a healer only wants to use Cure II and then asks the group to wait for MP to regenerate because they don't use ogcds? I feel like these are other forms of less efficient play that people try to address but for some reason small pulls at level 80 are off the table?

I do have to say that there is a really strong undercurrent in this game's community that is just aggressively inconsiderate of group dynamics or standards. It's kind of alien to me despite having played this game for years, I grew up playing games where people expected you to have consumables for leveling groups, or manage crowd control, enmity, and other responsibilities on top of just DPSing or healing. Running forward and hitting an AoE ability is just too much to handle though.

I think on some level this lack of expectation that gameplay change as you level up is probably a contributing factor as to why we don't get things like hard mode dungeons or alliance raids in this game.

[Titania40]

To be honest, at first I didn't even know what my aoes were. I had to stop and look over the tooltips after a dungeon when someone yelled at me to aoe. Mind you, when that person was yelling at my monk to aoe, I didn't have any yet. You get your first one at level 20, I think. And I had been running a level 15 dungeon at level 15.

[Goji1639]

Snip

What undermines your entire position here is the fact that in that scenario you were outvoted. If the majority of the group WANTS to allow the tank to pace himself and you become obstinate then YOU'RE the problem. There is no standard you can force on everyone, no matter how badly you want to. Not saying you have to stay, but the most you're entitled to say is "sorry, don't have the patience for a slow run right now so I'm out. Best of luck!"

The tank didnt even attempt to mass pull number one. How would they know if theyre comfortable or not, or if they can handle it without even trying. Thats pure laziness. You can go ahead and name call all you want. All you've shown here is that you're choosing to enable this laziness and lack of basic understanding of ones job. If people cant take 5-10 minutes out of their day to learn their job and kit in content that affects other players' time, then they dont deserve to be catered to.Considering how many peopl ehave agred with my points i'd say you and the minority advocating for this behavior are in the wrong, and you proved this by resorting to name calling.

Not really name-calling; it's more characterization based on visible information.

Regardless, there's plenty of reasons a tank might not be comfortable. Lack of familiarity with the dungeon or with level 80 tanking in general are big ones. Oddly enough, wall to wall pulling in leveling dungeons is suicide in many cases, especially if you're low ilvl. By the time you reach 80 you feel pretty weak. Pulling small takes the pressure off and lets the tank feel how powerful he out of nowhere becomes at 80, which will make him more confident he can actually handle massive pulls.

[FrogDog]

What undermines your entire position here is the fact that in that scenario you were outvoted. If the majority of the group WANTS to allow the tank to pace himself and you become obstinate then YOU'RE the problem. There is no standard you can force on everyone, no matter how badly you want to. Not saying you have to stay, but the most you're entitled to say is "sorry, don't have the patience for a slow run right now so I'm out. Best of luck!"

Ah so I guess the issue is your standard of politeness? Given my limited interactions with you on this thread that seems kind of laughable.

[BaconBits]

Need to stop treating these tanks with kid gloves at some point. Like, I don't mind if a fresh 50 or 60 has a bit of trepidation towards pulling more than two groups of enemies. At level 70 I'll roll my eyes and grumble a bit, but I won't say anything. At 80 I just gotta ask, what the heck is going on? If they want to pull single packs and take their time, why not just run with trusts instead of wasting three other player's time?

SE literally introduced a new mode to allow players to run dungeons at their leisure without having to deal with other players and yet we still have to deal with single-pulling tanks in dungeons that are almost unfathomably toothless. Paglth'an is so hilariously undertuned that a Warrior can solo the entirety of it without a healer and two dps to back them up. Whether there's 3 mobs or 10, tank gameplay doesn't change. Just spam your aoe, use your cooldowns, and dodge enemy aoes.

No more excuses.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What undermines your entire position here is the fact that in that scenario you were outvoted. If the majority of the group WANTS to allow the tank to pace himself and you become obstinate then YOU'RE the problem. There is no standard you can force on everyone, no matter how badly you want to. Not saying you have to stay, but the most you're entitled to say is "sorry, don't have the patience for a slow run right now so I'm out. Best of luck!"


Not really name-calling; it's more characterization based on visible information.

Regardless, there's plenty of reasons a tank might not be comfortable. Lack of familiarity with the dungeon or with level 80 tanking in general are big ones. Oddly enough, wall to wall pulling in leveling dungeons is suicide in many cases, especially if you're low ilvl. By the time you reach 80 you feel pretty weak. Pulling small takes the pressure off and lets the tank feel how powerful he out of nowhere becomes at 80, which will make him more confident he can actually handle massive pulls.

Lack of familiarity with level 80 tanking?…. You need to do at the very least 6 dungeons to get to paglthan. Again this just sounds like horrible excuses to try to enable these people. I’m not a tank main. Tanking is by far my least favorite role. However, i leveled a tank(drk) purely because i kept getting issues with tanks in endgame content. Tanks not knowing their kit, not mass pulling in endgame content etc. Leveling dungeons 70 and below, understandable. By level 71+, you have so many tools in your kit as both a healer and a tank there’s really no reason not to mass pull. If the dps is low, then you’ll figure that out ONCE you mass pull. You shouldn’t just automatically say “i can’t handle this omg, i’m gonna small pull.” This situation is so baffling because it’s literally the last dungeon of the expansion and people are still being enabled this way. What’s going to happen come 6.0? People aren’t comfortable with level 90 tanking? Seriously?

[Titania40]

Good on you though for reading your tooltips. Most players dont even do that even when they hit endgame content.

Bwah? But, I mean, it's important to know at the very least what sort of damage your attacks do or what they do. Otherwise you might try healing someone with Ruin or try damaging an enemy with Cure (doesn't work against most enemy types usually). Now, I had initially thought that this would be like most MMOs where you end up replacing low level abilities with their higher level equivalents. While "Pointy Stick Thrust" might be a rock solid attack at level 5, by level 20 you really should be either using "Pointy Stick Thrust III" or "Iron Pointy Stick Thrust", depending on which does more damage. Things were fine with that mentality at first. I replaced my True Strike with Twin Snakes, and was good to go. Only for the next level synch'd battle to break my attack chain because it lowered my level below the threshold for using Twin Snakes. Which is level 18, btw. This taught me that I need to keep my lower level attacks on the hotbar because they are still needed when synched down.

After one of the 'sprout role tutorial' missions mentioned positioning, I went over my abilities and figured out which ones do extra damage from what position relative to my target. And after someone yelled at me to "use your aoe" (before I had one because I hadn't done that Class Quest yet) I started checking for that. I now have an 'aoe' rotation and a 'single target' rotation.