Need help / advice for this tank roulette situation

[Arrius]

Having steadfast rules that you cannot adapt or change or modify to the group is not the mark of a good player, nor a good leader. The best leaders (read: any good leader) is able to adapt to the situation. Someone else pulled a mob? Taunt it. Mobs you pulled getting out of hand? Fix it. Someone not responding to chat or suggestions? Do your best and use every ability at your disposal to save the group and continue the encounter. These activities are the mark of an excellent player.

Sure, and this is all fine and dandy.

But you have to remind yourself: This is a environment where you likely won't see said people again after the run - Taking the high ground won't affect them since they will be gone after 15-20 minutes and you used up your energy for nothing.

Pug groups are considered a 'Wild West' of communication, coordination and skill, with non-tanks standing in front of mobs only to get cleaved, doing their rotations wrong and doing far less damage than their should, not utilizing positionals, not avoiding AoE, and the list goes on.
Tanks and healers usually see such things more, since their perception includes the enemies and the group, and take notice when the clear times of mobs are higher than usual. And usually that means extra work for them.
And maybe ... they are just tired by this. Tired of them being responsible for the group and their falling outs, even though they did not do anything wrong themselves.

Perhaps that's why the tanks put up a stone-faced appearance and employ the 'You pull you tank' attitude - They have enough that the DPS 'monkeys' play around and not being accountable for their actions.
Same reason you always see folks wondering about the lack of tanks, or healers in many MMO's. They are still there, but they don't want to deal with pugs anymore and instead keep themselves within their friend/fc/guild circle for their roulettes. They want their effort to be respected.

And those who DO still run pug roulettes, well ... some tend to be more heavy-handed on their approach, as mentioned above, to get the job done.

Cause and effect. It did not come around from nowhere, it developed over time.
Do we want to be like that, though? Probably not. But many are just done with this.

[Ath192]

no lol, the dps' and healers just know that it takes a single, maybe two, AOEs from the tank to get all the aggro they "stole" from them back and that it's childish whining if they get upset when one of them dares to pulls an enemy before them, though tanks like this are thankfully rare

yes lol, the dps and healers just know there is no good reason to pull ahead of a tank and they fall into two categories: a mistake, or because they wanted to go fast. And it is childish to pull ahead without asking for bigger pulls in chat because the tank dares to take it slow, though dps and healers like this are thankfully rare.

[Goji1639]

Being versatile and adaptable is not only preferable, but objectively better than all of that above.

Could you imagine any other game or sport or team venture where if a mistake is made, the leader of the team just abandoned the offending team member and let them suffer on their own?

- Baseball: You missed that catch. No one else will run for the ball; you go get it.
- Basketball: You didn't get that rebound. Well, now no one will pass to you, nor will anyone defend you.
- Flying an Airbus A380: Well, Billy, you really messed up by missing an item on the pre-flight checklist. Guess you get to fly solo to Bangkok.

Having steadfast rules that you cannot adapt or change or modify to the group is not the mark of a good player, nor a good leader. The best leaders (read: any good leader) is able to adapt to the situation. Someone else pulled a mob? Taunt it. Mobs you pulled getting out of hand? Fix it. Someone not responding to chat or suggestions? Do your best and use every ability at your disposal to save the group and continue the encounter. These activities are the mark of an excellent player.

First, I'm not really talking about mistakes. If a DPS accidentally takes aggro from a nearby group or wandering enemy that's not an issue; I'll pick it up and we'll move on. DPS pulling on purpose, however, are being intentionally disruptive. That's not something the tank or group should have to 'adjust' to; if the DPS WANTS to be the tank then I'll let him try.

Even still, letting the DPS die once isn't 'abandoning' him. He'll have a quick realization that he's not the tank, get raised and from there I'll resume tanking stuff for him and the Healer will resume healing him; at least until the next time he gets it in his head that he's the tank.

[MirielleLavandre]

Only problem with the idea of letting a dps die is that many healers (myself included) heal everything regardless of how or why / barring terrible times when one dies so often it is more mana and party efficient to leave them dead for a lil). Thus, a dps who pulls some will probably be healed, and then the mobs will attack the healer. Would you then let the healer die, too? It isn't the tank that 'let's ' people die, really - it is the healer, if anyone.

[Goji1639]

Only problem with the idea of letting a dps die is that many healers (myself included) heal everything regardless of how or why / barring terrible times when one dies so often it is more mana and party efficient to leave them dead for a lil). Thus, a dps who pulls some will probably be healed, and then the mobs will attack the healer. Would you then let the healer die, too? It isn't the tank that 'let's ' people die, really - it is the healer, if anyone.

I agree that the Healer needs to be onboard for this to play out correctly. If the Healer starts healing him then my hand is forced and I have to pick up the adds.

I rarely run into this situation in game anyways, most of these discussions of how I would handle this stuff are hypothetical and in principle. DPS intentionally pulling just flat out should not happen, unless the whole group is friends and in agreement they just want to screw around.

[ZedxKayn]

Personally if I'm on healer and the tank decides to pull that "you pull you tank" bs and I have to choose between healing the tank or healing the DPS/myself, the tank can eat dirt and get kicked. Even if I can heal both, the tank will get a kick.
Despicable attitude.

[Ath192]

Personally if I'm on healer and the tank decides to pull that "you pull you tank" bs and I have to choose between healing the tank or healing the DPS/myself, the tank can eat dirt and get kicked. Even if I can heal both, the tank will get a kick.
Despicable attitude.

Personally if the DPS is pulling on purpose repeatedly after asked to stop I'd kick the DPS. So I guess its the luck of the draw in these situations. Regardless if I'm the other DPS, Tank, or Healer. If DPS cant bother to communicate with their party about wanting bigger pulls they are no better.

[ZedxKayn]

Personally if the DPS is pulling on purpose repeatedly after asked to stop I'd kick the DPS. So I guess its the luck of the draw in these situations. Regardless if I'm the other DPS, Tank, or Healer. If DPS cant bother to communicate with their party about wanting bigger pulls they are no better.

They are better because a DPS pulling will not hinder the run and can even be beneficial whereas a tank griefing will waste everyone's time.

[Wolwosh]

If Tanks are 80 and not new i'm not doing a 1 group per pull run.
Honestly its so boring and at 80 that Tank should grow some b****...
I will pull or vote kick, and if the group defends that kind of lame Tanking I leave myself.
I've never gotten a GM talk or a warning.
If you don't flame/curse and just speak your opinion its fine.

[Arrius]

They are better because a DPS pulling will not hinder the run and can even be beneficial whereas a tank griefing will waste everyone's time.

Yet the DPS are mostly (if not solely) the problem in general in DF groups, and likely the cause of healers and tanks coming with such an attitude.
If they behave properly and play their jobs right, I will truck through Steel Vigil to the boss in 8 minutes, Antitower in less than 9, and even Brayflox HM can be done in 4 massive pulls and in 6 minutes.

But no, many are not able to utilize their job right and things drag on at the expense of the healer and the tank. Because easier to notice when tanks/healers play bad, and the group risks a wipe if they die.

And the DPS? "Just" another 5-8 minutes extra wasted in the dungeon since they can't play their job like they supposed to. Or even more, when they don't evade AoE or instadeath mechanics.

We are tired of it.
Bring your damn A-game into the dungeon, DPS.

We will pull through them in record time if you do. Believe me. Everybody wins with this.