Should Dark Arts Come Back in 6.0? If so, What Should the Skill Do?

[Shurrikhan]

All defensive uses of MP were dps losses.

rDPS not only exists, but is the only thing that ultimately matters.

If doubling (or better) the mitigation of a given skill could rope in an extra Stone III back then, that was worth significantly more than our own 140 bonus potency.

I'm not saying HW accomplished that often enough. I'm merely saying that there is obviously a balancing point above which spending MP on a defensive can be an rDPS gain and beneath which it will be an rDPS loss, which is a wee bit more complicated than "I sacrificed 140 of my own potency to cast this, so it's always necessarily an (r)DPS loss."

[Lyth]

It just didn't work out that way back then. The reason why Heavensward didn't accomplish this at all was because damage output of a tank in Heavensward overlapped with DPS, and healer dps had a lower percentage raid contribution than it does now. I know that there were quite a few ongoing debates at the time along the lines of "If I use Shield Oath, then I'm helping my team dps," but again, that just wasn't the case. It was worthwhile to use a free mitigation ability to reduce your damage intake so that it may free up a healer global. It's wasn't worthwhile to throw away potency for it.

[Shurrikhan]

It just didn't work out that way back then. The reason why Heavensward didn't accomplish this at all was because damage output of a tank in Heavensward overlapped with DPS, and healer dps had a lower percentage raid contribution than it does now. I know that there were quite a few ongoing debates at the time along the lines of "If I use Shield Oath, then I'm helping my team dps," but again, that just wasn't the case. It was worthwhile to use a free mitigation ability to reduce your damage intake so that it may free up a healer global. It's wasn't worthwhile to throw away potency for it.

Okay, but if/when tanks do not so outpace the combined throughput (healer rDPS saved + direct contribution + rDPS throughput facilitated through positioning, etc.) of DPS, is defensive-spending-as-an-rDPS gain something we never again want to attempt? Let's assume for a moment that tanks don't need to be brokenly OP, subtly or otherwise.

Keep in mind that defensive spending options do not necessitate that DRK has a weaker baseline mitigation kit. It only requires that they not be uniquely able to complete content through their higher (be that significantly over time or not) mitigation ceiling. Given that content must be tuned for each and every tank to complete, any such unique advantage (beyond the mere ability to carry healers in certain interactions at no rDPS cost, a mere matter of ease in progression) seems unlikely to break tank balance, especially given how any such aspect would increase DRK's skill ceiling.

Personally, I think that would be fun. I'd like more of that flexibility from other tanks, too, of course, but in general that's a bit of gameplay that I feel could, if well situated, make DRK more enjoyable. I would not, however, be that upset not to get it. It's just one of many areas of playflow that could make tanking on DRK more entertaining. Ultimately, I just want some depth and agency (i.e., less reward for merely existing, and more reward for good play, where that good play is at least somewhat involved and challenging).

[Lyth]

There's a better way to do this than being a damage sponge. When the boss winds up for a big attack, give each tank a devastating counter that they can use to reduce the outgoing damage and make the boss vulnerable for a brief period.

Or as was suggested elsewhere, you could experiment with abilities similar to Chelonian Gate/Cold Fog, where using the defensive converts the move to a counterattack once you take damage.

[Shurrikhan]

There's a better way to do this than being a damage sponge. When the boss winds up for a big attack, give each tank a devastating counter that they can use to reduce the outgoing damage and make the boss vulnerable for a brief period.

No one has suggested being "a damage sponge", only that we should have more agency in our defense, rather than relying merely the exceedingly passive value of taking as it currently stands. Counterattacks can be a part of that sure, but I would hope at least as much would go towards actual tanking, rather than just being a slot-limited Blue DPS (Me no get big; me hit big back instead! And do Trick Attack!) of greater combined throughput.

Or as was suggested elsewhere, you could experiment with abilities similar to Chelonian Gate/Cold Fog, where using the defensive converts the move to a counterattack once you take damage.

How is that any different from our current Dark Arts, that apparently many here are finding lackluster, though? Again, sure, include that where it'd feel interesting, but how are these sufficient or mutually exclusive alternatives to having agency in our defense that doesn't just feel like "Blue DPS"?

[Lyth]

Doing damage very much has to be a part of 'actual tanking'. If it isn't, then there aren't going to be any 'actual tanks'.

If it's engaging defensive abilities that you want, then it has to be about timing (i.e. frequent mini-busters that you have to mitigate with short recast cooldowns, instead of invuln-swap). But that's also a fight design issue.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

both a fight design issue and a fundamental design issue...
FFXIV is waaaay too "DPS is more important than aught else and only DPS matters", to the point that "Healers" are just green DPS that heal so that DPS keeps constant, and "Tanks" are just blue DPS designed to survive better than the other DPS, so that they can DPS and other DPS can DPS, without needing to worry too much about KOs impacting DPS output.

a complaint like that would be off-topic, though. back to the topic.
so the big issue at the moment is the question "how could the old Dark Arts be a non-DPS buff to defensive, self-supportive, supportive, and/or utility actions, while not reducing DPS output"?, since the main concern is not reducing DPS potential through not using Dark Arts as a direct increase to personal DPS output, then?

[Rollout]

No, don't bring back Dark Arts. Bring back Darkside. And make it a burst phase activation ability.
Honestly, that shit that Reaper's pulling off is what Darkside should be for Dark Knight.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

hmn. a interesting idea for DarkSide, I suppose... a "DPS Burst" DarkSide action could be a interesting toy to play with, but not if it is just a clone burst... while, if Dark Knight would change from WAR clone to Reaper clone, instead of finally having its own identity back, that would not be much of a improvement...

to be honest, I think that "DPS Burst" in general needs to be removed from Dark Knight, as Dark Knight being changed into a "Burst" Tank is what caused it to become the total trash 5.x ShB Dark Knight... Dark Knight needs to go back to sustained DPS design. Warrior and GunBreaker already have the Burst identity going for them, and Dark Knight should not just copy those two.

[Derio]

I just want the Dark Arts animation back, for a power up, AOE attack, whatever just bring it back.

I dont see them adjusting DRK. I see them doing a overhaul for WAR to make it different from DRK.

The problem with DRK is it is the only tank that has 1 combo which is a shell of 3.0 DRK. They have tried so many things with DRK but nothing beats HW DRK which are the roots of the job.