Dark Knight where is my Identiy

[Shurrikhan]

No more MP. Hear me out.

Using Edge/Flood now reduces maximum HP, as well as losing any HP over the excess of your new HP total.

I think I get the concepts here well enough, but I've made the mistake of critiquing one of your ideas without having read carefully enough before, so I don't want to assume.

Could you give a little more insight into the playflow of this -- what it would actually feel like, or what the points of attention would be as you're working through its sort of rotation?

________________________

For now, though (apologies in advance):

At a gut feeling (likely errant), while I like that the maximum HP decreases make the punishment that much less avoidable, I dislike that it therefore diminishes healer interaction. Moreover, and this may by hypocritical, I feel that dropping to below typical non-tank maximum HP crosses a thematic threshold (or, feels less "tank-like") than dropping current HP to dangerous levels, even if the eHP ultimately still pans out towards the tankier. It just feels more like what I'd expect from a Reaper snap-tanking (if spurts of 1.x-style cross-role play were still a thing) more than a plate-armored knight wielding a giant sword.

Final probe: If Edge/Flood are to potentially remain 3s CDs, shouldn't Delirium instead reduce the cooldown on, say, Blood Weapon or TBN? Or is it meant to make Edge/Flood an every-GCD cast during some synergetic period?

Final nitpick: Please tell me the in-game term would not be a "pip" of Blood. I can't help but imagine a phlebotomist instead. Sorry, probably just a me thing. (Though I've little idea what else to call it... a "mote"? Idk.)

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

As for resources, drk uses Mp and gauge, adding another might be alot for less seasoned players, but idk.. that will need more thought.

Delirium have it give you unaspected dmg instead and haft you mp cost of all abilities for a duration and its on the gauge (cost 25-50)

Blood weapon Give it back the haste and keep the mp/ gauge gain but also give it 2 stacks same CD or longer

Bloodspiller and quietus take them off the gauge and give them the atonement treatment where if you perform finisher like Stalwart or soul eater or enhanced versions it allows you to use like 3 for a duration of 25s

Also I too have thought of a overhaul to Drk that involved Darkside coming back as a stance dance but no in the keep aggro sort of speak but enough of that what is this Dark sigil? sounds sick.

1, about Delirium / I have posted my thoughts on this serious issue else-where, but here we go again. my thoughts on Delirium are threefold...
one / bring back original Delirium? I would rename it to Delirium/Delirious Slash, though, to emphasize being a physical GCD like other other slashes(Hard, spinning, and Power). and remaster the WeaponSkill, as well. new potency, new bonus effect.
two / revert back to old Delirium. I rather like how the old Delirium would buff other MP recovery actions, to recover even more MP.
it was at least a lot more interesting than the trash Inner Release copy current Delirium...
three / all new Delirium. a new ability with a effect that matches the definition of the word "Delirium".

2, about Blood Weapon / I have actually seen other people also comment about a interest in Blood Weapon with the Haste bonus again. another two desire for Blood Weapon, which includes my own(the latter), would be to either turn Blood Weapon into a "grants 5 stacks" action, or at the least!, increase the damn duration to 11 or 12 seconds, so that Dark Knights can more of ease have the fifth hit in Blood Weapon, instead of the current nonsense of Blood Weapon's current duration is 9.8 seconds... where 2.40 GCD x 4 = 9.6 seconds... so, yeh.. seriously... 9.6 to 9.8 seconds, that fifth hit is a serious issue.

3, about BloodSpiller and Quietus / I am not so certain about them to no longer have a BlackBlood points cost, but I have thought about and debate to take them off of the GCD, and make those two oGCDs, instead...

4, about DarkSide / my decision on DarkSide, in my re-inventing Dark Knight pet project, was for Dark Knight to have both the old stance DarkSide,
and the current DarkSide.

5, about the "Blood Sigil" / hohohohoh! now we are going more deep into my head-canon, fair warning. "The Blood Sigil" is a few different things...
a third resource, a resource OverFlow storage, a "passive" resource that buffs actions, and also a "spent" resource that can spent on various actions
and spent in a few different ways...

first, the Blood Sigil is a third resource, along with the MP bar and the BlackBlood gauge, while these three resources also interact with each other.
The Blood Sigil also has various forms, scrawled, formed, inscribed, and awakened, as well as released.
now with this in mind... the Blood Sigil is a two-halves resource, and each of the two halves come from a different part in the weave rotation.
"Scrawled" is when the Dark Knight has only one half of the Blood Sigil, so the Dark Knight can not use the Blood Sigil.
while "formed".. is when both halves of the Blood Sigil are "drawn", and the Blood Sigil is now both active and ready for use.

while the Blood Sigil is "formed", it becomes a "passive resource", it already grants the Dark Knight beneficial bonuses, just for it being ready.
on the other scale, "Inscribed" and "Awakened" are how the Dark Knight "spends" the Blood Sigil as a "spent" resource. "Inscribed" is when the Blood Sigil is spent on buffing physical actions, while "Awakened" is when the Blood Sigil is spent on buffing magic actions.
additionally, while the Blood Sigil is "Inscribed" or "Awakened", the "Formed" bonuses of the Blood Sigil are still in effect.

last, but aught except the least, the Blood Sigil also acts as a "resource OverFlow storage". DO NOT DO THIS ON PURPOSE, as the point of it is... when MP or BlackBlood points are "on accident" generated more than the resource pool can take, in other words the "OverFlow / wasted resource", the Blood Sigil "absorbs" that "wasted" resource, and stores it... for example, if your MP bar is at 9700 and your Syphon Strike grants 600, you OverFlow and waste 300MP. the Blood Sigil.. if "formed", will "Absorb" and store that 300MP.
this is the Blood Sigil's last ability. at any time, the Dark Knight can "release" the absorbed resources(MP and BlackBlood) from the Blood Sigil, which makes the Blood Sigil activate its temporary "released" mode, in which the Blood Sigil places as much MP points and/or BlackBlood points into their resource pools as it can, while keeping all of the any resources that would "OverFlow" from the "release", still "absorbed" inside it, and will even "Absorb" any resources that may be on accident generated and "OverFlow" at the same as when the Blood Sigil was in its temporary "released" mode.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Rubs hands together with gigabrain intent.

No more MP. Hear me out.

Using Edge/Flood now reduces maximum HP, as well as losing any HP over the excess of your new HP total. You cannot reduce your maximum hp to 0%. This is the 'blood' cost of utilizing your dark skills. The cooldown of these skills will likely also be increased, but frankly, for a hypothetical build, they can stay at 3s for all I care.

You are given this visual information with the new Blood Gauge - 3 notches indicating your current status. Each gauge of this that is filled grants you 20% mitigation, stacking additively, as well as 20% penalty on all healing received, and the -25% maximum health.

Boring Math as to why.

Let us say you have 100 HP. You Edge yourself down to 25 HP.

You have an additional 60% mitigation, meaning you effectively have 60 HP.

The Blackest Night grants you health equal to 1 Blood pip, improving your baseline EHP to 50. At 60% mitigation, you have 125 EHP.

The healing penalty keeps healing proportionate to your damage intake and curbs abuse cases with Non-TBN shields. TBN for the Dar Knight is a cornerstone defense, and it is tuned so that the Dark's EHP upon using it is equivalent at all blood pips.

How much blood each Edge/Flood generates will be based on how stupid this should get. For the sake of sanity, it should probably generate '3'.

'2' and you're constantly doing simple arithmetic. Whether that's a problem or not is up to the individual.

'1' and, well.

Utilizing Blood skills restores your maximum HP, but it does not necessarily heal you. This means in order to get moar Floods/Edges, you need to dump your blood gauge, but do so in a manner that won't end up with you dying as a result. Lets go over a few options.

Bloodspiller/Quietus - Now that Blood is no longer a fill-gauge, these weaponskills instead cost 1 of blood. The exact dynamic of these skills can vary widely, but they'd always be available, but at reduced potency. These are your last choice in managing Blood. Probably turn these into buff granters.

Abyssal Drain - Remains an OGCD with a cooldown. Removes all Blood, dealing AoE potency scaling up for each pip removed, and healing for damage dealt.

TBN - Cooldown increased as it no longer has an MP cost. TBN, upon breaking, removes 1 Blood and heals for 25% of your actual maximum HP.

Blood Weapon - Costs 1 Blood, has a recast. Grants your weaponskills %Lifesteal.

Delirium - Removes all blood, has a recast. Shortens the recast of Edge/Flood of shadow.

Living Dead - Locks your blood gauge as well as abilities that utilize it for 8 seconds. Nullifies most attacks, removing 1 blood for each attack nullified. Ends at 0 Blood, after 8 seconds, or upon pressing Living Dead again (with a short internal CD to prevent misfires).

The effective goal, obviously, being more Edges / Floods, and avoiding utilizing GCDs to do so, and avoiding doing it in a such a manner that you end up paste, while also taking advantage of huge TBN effectively being a 100% Max HP shield, and taking advantage of timed healing skills like Earthly Star, Excog, group AoEs, etc to an extent that other tanks don't.

I am... for the more part, not certain that I comprehend the concept, yet... but I am of interest. I already have first and third-type Blood Magic ideas, but I had no self-sacrifice second-type Blood Magic ideas, so I do want to read where you are going with this, half out of curiosity, and half on the chance that you give me a mind-blow inspiration for a new IQ160 idea.

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Final nitpick: Please tell me the in-game term would not be a "pip" of Blood. I can't help but imagine a phlebotomist instead. Sorry, probably just a me thing. (Though I've little idea what else to call it... a "mote"? Idk.)

uhm... hmn. I would call it the "Blood Points" of the "Blood Gauge", but.. uh... hmn. a tick? ...a splatter? how does one describe blood in a amount of volume that does not sound as dumb as "a drop"...

[Kabooa]

I think I get the concepts here well enough, but I've made the mistake of critiquing one of your ideas without having read carefully enough before, so I don't want to assume.

Could you give a little more insight into the playflow of this -- what it would actually feel like, or what the points of attention would be as you're working through its sort of rotation?

________________________

Final nitpick: Please tell me the in-game term would not be a "pip" of Blood. I can't help but imagine a phlebotomist instead. Sorry, probably just a me thing. (Though I've little idea what else to call it... a "mote"? Idk.)

What it's called can be anything. Puddle, pool, splat, splash, bucket. Mote sounds fine.

The playflow would depend on how much 'Blood' Edge/Flood cost/generate. In my mind, '3' is about the same pace of Edges/Floods we have now. Every Edge/Flood, the Dark fills the blood gauge to maximum. While the opening would have a rather frantic Dump-Dive as it runs its cooldowns, it becomes far less frantic after the initial first 15 seconds or so, from here spacing out cooldowns within safe windows (such as when TBN is available) in order to keep its cadence.

Example: Engage -> Edge/Flood -> TBN -> GCD -> Delirium -> Edge/Flood -> GCD -> Abyssal -> Edge/Flood -> GCD -> Slow phase.

Compare this to the scenario where each Edge/Flood does but 1. The post is a little all over the place, but the Delirium change was when '1' was the only consideration.

Engage -> Edge/Flood -> GCD -> Edge/Flood -> Gcd -> Edge/Flood + TBN -> GCD -> Delirium + Edge-> GCD -> EDGEDGEDGEDGEDGEDGEDGEDGE you get the idea.

One of the unfortunate aspects of ramping mitigation is how stupid it makes shields. Consider that at maximum blood, TBN is effectively +100% EHP instead of +25%. The Healing penalty is applied in a manner to avoid abuse cases, but this doesn't apply to effects that give their benefit prior, such as shields. In this case, the interplay from Dark/Healer primarily comes in when the Dark Knight is at full HP and has yet to dump themselves, and that Blood recovery being gated primarily by cooldowns means that Dark, at a baseline, is no harder to heal than any other tank, but a Dark and Healer working in tandem can create some truly stupid scenarios. We'd have to adjust the penalty to work in a specific manner to allow this. Also consider that the following assumes Edge/Flood fills the Blood gauge with 1 mote.

Bloodcrazed - New healing effects are X% less effective.

This allows Regen-likes, Excogitation, and pre-placed Shields to all gain a rather large amount of effectiveness. Timing a long CD Blood remover around Ground Heals let you stretch HP farther, as the Bolide-like approach to HP means the HP you lose on the way to your new thresh hold is mostly inconsequential.

You go from 100 HP to 75, but the 75 is worth the same as ~93. You go from 75 to 50, but the 50 is worth ~ 83, and the 25 is worth ~ 63.

In short, an average Dark could just play around sitting at max blood and line up CDs with TBN for maximum safety, though this may end up causing other cooldown timers to drift. They are no harder to heal than any other tank, but it does open up a few tag-team avenues between tank and healer that does not currently exist.

[Shurrikhan]

One of the unfortunate aspects of ramping mitigation is how stupid it makes shields. Consider that at maximum blood, TBN is effectively +100% EHP instead of +25%. The Healing penalty is applied in a manner to avoid abuse cases, but this doesn't apply to effects that give their benefit prior, such as shields. In this case, the interplay from Dark/Healer primarily comes in when the Dark Knight is at full HP and has yet to dump themselves, and that Blood recovery being gated primarily by cooldowns means that Dark, at a baseline, is no harder to heal than any other tank, but a Dark and Healer working in tandem can create some truly stupid scenarios. We'd have to adjust the penalty to work in a specific manner to allow this. Also consider that the following assumes Edge/Flood fills the Blood gauge with 1 mote.

Even with Bloodcrazed not affecting prior placed HoTs, the low maximum HP would still be crippling to them compared to shields, which more than retain their old eHP increases. (Granted, the effective value of each HoT tick is increased, too, but it has that much more chance to overcap.)

While the opening would have a rather frantic Dump-Dive as it runs its cooldowns, it becomes far less frantic after the initial first 15 seconds or so, from here spacing out cooldowns within safe windows (such as when TBN is available) in order to keep its cadence.

I get that, but I was looking more at in what ways it actually focuses gameplay around external events (boss damage or HoTs/shields taken or big heals mid-cast on them) or its rotational CDs.

For instance, if every Edge/Flood reduces maximum HP, but does not reduce current HP, then those ought to be timed to having taken that much damage. With that, the damage taken will have done nothing to your eHP; you'll have, effectively, healed it. That seems like it could be interesting, but if we already have fairly quick usage (even that of your '3') in generating and purging blood just due to rotational concerns, that doesn't seem like something we could interact with very well.

[Vatom]

[B]
Using Edge/Flood now reduces maximum HP, as well as losing any HP over the excess of your new HP total. You cannot reduce your maximum hp to 0%. This is the 'blood' cost of utilizing your dark skills. The cooldown of these skills will likely also be increased, but frankly, for a hypothetical build, they can stay at 3s for all I care. Also would the restore Max hp only on edge/flood or when you use blood magic? Also tankbusters would that be a problem?

Like the concept I might need more elaboration on how this would all fit together but I also get the idea. Im still wondering if this fits more on War then Drk. Also think this has a high skill curve but not too high might just need some adjusting, though I can see this stopping the Edge/flood spam due to losing Max Hp

5, about the "Blood Sigil" / hohohohoh! now we are going more deep into my head-canon, fair warning. "The Blood Sigil" is a few different things...
a third resource, a resource OverFlow storage, a "passive" resource that buffs actions, and also a "spent" resource that can spent on various actions
and spent in a few different ways...

Pretty cool Im digging it make me think of DMC. Is this a whole new gauge system or flow with blood?
I do wish for them to bring back the passive buffs for tanks could be awesome if they did also dont know why they took it out in the first place even if some were based off of the stance dance. I think this would sound cooler knowing the full kit but I wont ask for all that seems like it would be alot to type.
Might I ask is this 4 sigils or 2? Im a bit confused on that part also do you expend them passively or with a button or ability?

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Pretty cool Im digging it make me think of DMC. Is this a whole new gauge system or flow with blood?
I do wish for them to bring back the passive buffs for tanks could be awesome if they did also dont know why they took it out in the first place even if some were based off of the stance dance. I think this would sound cooler knowing the full kit but I wont ask for all that seems like it would be alot to type.
Might I ask is this 4 sigils or 2? Im a bit confused on that part also do you expend them passively or with a button or ability?

in theory... XD I could type out my entire pet project in here, but yeh... that is a lot to type. =w=; all of those notes is enough words and a high enough character count to hit a post-limit of 3000 characters 8 or 9 times, with how extensive it all is. I go into 4 different systems.. Dark Knight's 4 resources, how they function, and how they interact with each other, as well as all of the exact details of more than three dozen actions, split between WeaponSkills, Spellls, and abilities...
my Dark Knight head-canon is more meant for a hard-core RGP with in-class diversity, rather than a game like what FFXIV is at current, a mere glorified action game with almost no RPG elements at all, no in-class diversity, far too simple for my tastes, and absolute trash combat systems. the combat mechanics are good and fights are fun, but the combat systems are trash... that is why I call my ideas for Dark Knight "head-canon", I heavily re-designed Dark Knight with little consideration to FFXIV's current design and limits.


1, whole new gauge system or flow with blood? / As I stated in the original post, it is a third resource that interacts with the other two, the MP bar and BlackBlood gauge. I do not remove or replace any thing that the Dark Knight already has, I just reworked what already exists or remastered what was deleted, and added in my own new things.

2, passive buffs / my head-canon of Dark Knight has a few of them, one being the return of the old DarkSide, the permanent passive self-buff that is turned on like Tank Stance, with the passive effects of increasing damage dealt by 20%, disables natural MP regen, and negates MP restoration from any other source, to make it so that the Dark Knight can only restore MP through actions that restore MP; while I added more MP restoration sources to Dark Knight, through old actions and some of my own added-in new actions.

3, about the Blood Sigil / hmn, how to elaborate... think of the BlackBlood gauge and the helmet that tracks DarkSide duration. The Blood Sigil can be seen sort of like "behind" them, one part of the Blood Sigil is a literal Sigil visible on either edge-side of the BlackBlood gauge's "Sword", while the other part of the Blood Sigil is a literal Sigil drawn on the "behind-side", sitting beside to the right, of the helmet that tracks DarkSide.

initially, the Blood Sigil is grey(ed)-out, it looks like a absent silhouette. once you go through either of your 1-2-3 GCD combos, the Blood Sigil comes from the weave rotation between the GCD rotation. I should mention that I altered Syphon Strike and SoulEater into oGCDs to be weaved...
any way, in other words... the combo is either:
Hard Slash(GCD) - weave Syphon Strike(oGCD) - Spinning Slash(GCD) - weave SoulEater(oGCD) - Power Slash(GCD) or Low Slash(GCD, the old before-role-actions "Low Blow," new additional effect).
Heavy Slash(GCD) - weave Syphon Strike(oGCD) - Scourge Slash(the original Scourge GCD and its DoT, but moved into a 1-2-3 combo) - weave SoulEater(oGCD) - Delirium Slash(the original Delirium, still GCD but with a new effect) or Reprisal Slash(GCD, the old before-role-actions "reprisal", new additional effect).

Syphon Strike and SoulEater on activation grant one half of the Blood Sigil... if you weave Syphon Strike but not SoulEater, or weave SoulEater but not Syphon Strike, you get only one half the Blood Sigil, so only one half of it will gain colour, while the other half remains grey(ed)-out. this is the "Scrawled" form, where you have only one half of the resource, and can not use the not-yet-complete Blood Sigil, as it needs both halves to be active.
you have to weave in both Syphon Strike and SoulEater, not mess up your weave rotation, or go through the weave rotation twice to gain the other half, before both sides of the Blood Sigil will then be in colour, and this is the "Formed" form, the Blood Sigil is now active and the resource is ready... while like this, any actions with a "Additional effect" that is "Blood Sigil, formed: (the additional effect)", will have those additional effects activate, which includes BloodSpiller and Quietus changing from GCD to oGCD.
this is why I referred to the Blood Sigil as a "passive" resource, it already has effects on some actions, just for being ready.

next comes spending the Blood Sigil as a "active" resource... there are a pair of actions, "Inscribe Blood Sigil" and "awaken Blood Sigil". when you use the "Inscribe Blood Sigil" action, the Blood Sigil changes.. the player can see the Blood Sigil, now in colour rather than grey(ed)-out, since it was made active in "formed" form.. become animate, the player can visibly see the runes that make up the sigil shifting and moving, while a 30 second duration-timer appears, as the Blood Sigil has changed to "Inscribed" form.
for the next 30 seconds, all WeaponSkills, GCD or oGCD, and abilities, with a Additional effect that is "Blood Sigil, Inscribed: (the additional effect)",
will activate that additional effect.

then we have the "awaken Blood Sigil" action, similar function... when you use "awaken Blood Sigil", the Blood Sigil changes.. the player can see the Blood Sigil, now in colour rather than grey(ed)-out, since it was made active in "formed" form.. become animate, the player can visibly see the Blood Sigil begin to glow and pulse, while a 30 second duration-timer appears, as the Blood Sigil has changed to its "Awakened" form.
for the next 30 seconds, all spells, GCD or oGCD, and abilities, with a Additional effect that is "Blood Sigil, Awakened: (the additional effect)", will activate that additional effect.

last, the "released" form. this one is mostly passive... back down at the helmet, that part of the Blood Sigil also has numbers beside it, tracking how much MP points and/or BlackBlood points have been "Absorbed" by the Blood Sigil, if you have caused resource OverFlow on accident, at some point. when you use the "release Blood Sigil" action, the numbers beside the Blood Sigil go down as much as they can, as those MP points and BlackBlood Points are shifted over into your MP bar and BlackBlood gauge.

[Vatom]

1, whole new gauge system or flow with blood? / As I stated in the original post, it is a third resource that interacts with the other two, the MP bar and BlackBlood gauge. I do not remove or replace any thing that the Dark Knight already has, I just reworked what already exists or remastered what was deleted, and added in my own new things.

Ok I understand now more or less an addition system that is more passive till filled. Not a bad idea definitely something i would love to see but as for SE doing it... yeah not making fun of you just my faith in SE doing something so unique and in the direction we wish for is a little bit low. Interesting on making some of the old move into oGCDs I wonder how that would look any idea on if they would be the same animation or something more edgy?

Personally I wish for hard slash to be removed I'm not a fan of the animation, I just don't like the fact that it looks like I cant carry the sword. Yeah I know its suppose to be heavy but so is WARs axe and we swing that like its a bat.

Also will reprisal do damage or is it just a buff/debuff

So to get back on track what is the first thing you think we need to change to Drk?

[Anahlise_Auhn_Giinslai]

Ok I understand now more or less an addition system that is more passive till filled. Not a bad idea definitely something I would love to see but as for SE doing it... yeah not making fun of you just my faith in SE doing something so unique and in the direction we wish for is a little bit low.

nawh, I agree. there is no way that Squeenix would allow the dev team to do what players want. Squeenix only cares about money and would never allow the devs to do a thing that would not make them a schitt-ton of money. And since the idea is mine by all rights, Squeenix would have to have my permission to use my idea, and pay me, so that I can not sue them for copy-right infringement.

Interesting on making some of the old move into oGCDs I wonder how that would look any idea on if they would be the same animation or something more edgy?

same old animations. I simply remastered the old WeaponSkills, to bring them back. Low Slash and Reprisal Slash would have new animations, different from the Low Blow and Reprisal role actions, though. I was thinking about giving them new animations, to make them look like GreatSword swings and fit with the other WeaponSkills.

Also will reprisal do damage or is it just a buff/debuff

the new Reprisal Slash deals damage like all of the other WeaponSkills. The only difference is that Hard Slash, Heavy Slash, Spinning Slash, and Power Slash are just higher damage, while Low Slash, Reprisal Slash, Scourge Slash, and Delirium Slash are lower damage but all have additional effects.

So to get back on track what is the first thing you think we need to change to Drk?

Like, Seriously? I have a entire list... "TLDR", though.. give back to Dark Knight its own identity.
change Dark Knight into original 3.x Dark Knight remastered, combined with the bare few 5.x things that are worth keeping around.
Some of my basic thoughts on Dark Knight is to fix Blood Weapon, trash and redesign Living Dead, trash current Delirium for either a old Delirium version or some new thing, expand our GCD combo options, give Dark Knight one or two more more constant-weave oGCDs, to lessen the ugly-ness of Edge/Flood of Darkness/Shadow spam, do some thing about Living Shadow being just a mere glorified DoT, Dark Knight's BlackBlood gauge is just Warrior's Beast gauge; so change that as well, making it more interactive and more often used, BloodSpiller will never be Fell Cleave, so the devs need to stop with that, remove almost all "burst" from Dark Knight and return the Dark Knight to sustained DPS, undo "WAR clone" as much as possible, and of course...
give back to Dark Knight its own identity.