Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[_Koneko_]

the op is right there is a culture of enabling in this game enabling of ToS violations SE should strike down the ban hammer on this sinners and banish them from our sight

[Awha]

Remember the main reason OP is feeling this way isn't because intrinsically that there are people who play, for simpler terms, bad. It's the amount of people he has encountered that has led him to believe half the playerbase plays bad. If we take that as face value, then that half becomes a real number. But the real number is based off an exaggeration. That's why the concern becomes diminished. Not over his frustration. Even myself, I can understand encountering bad DF sessions and expressing frustration. I won't undermine that and you'll find most empathizing with frustrations. That's why we have a Tales of DF thread. It's concern over this claimed quantity and it's giving the impression to a lot of people in this thread is that it's being blown to proportions, thus casting also a diminished concern over OP's experience as well.

I mean put it this way, if that number was much smaller in his case and by much, let's pretend that only 5-10% of the playerbase played "bad" in his encounters, do you think he'd have this thread up?

Personally going based off what I have seen with the OP yeah. Since at the core I do not think the frequency is so much the issue per-se. The fact it happens and in his view the community enables it is the core issue.

Granted I fall into the camp that thought his claims where an exaggeration, but the core of his message I did agree with. That our community does enable a degree of poor play because the skill floor is so low in which one has to play to clear the content. Thus creating this environment where trying is not even required especially when you have other players willing to make the difference.

His personal experiences does not detract from that, though even if I do think his claims may be exaggerated, we still cannot throw around the notion that in his experience over half of his encounters have someone who is playing poorly. I guess what I am saying is overall the possibility exists that his claims are his true experience.So what is the point of focusing on that claim since we really have no way to say otherwise.

Granted, SE will not do anything so I get that largely makes this topic moot.

[Vahlnir]

I see I am receiving "I am going to hate you and make fun of you since I don't have better use for my time" treatment.



What's more foolish is admitting there is a problem and making fun of those who encounter the problem.

To be fair, I wasn't poking fun at you specifically, but more at the collective whole of individuals who claim (falsely) to be plagued by DF problems endlessly, or those who exaggerate their personal encounters and claim that this is the reality of the entire player base. I'm sorry, but I just can't buy some of what's being said. I realize that probably isn't much consolation though. I've been playing since ARR open beta (8 years-ish soon) and I can honestly say that this is not the truth. Sure, there are a number of players who could be considered "bad" and/or toxic, but they are hardly any sort of majority. In the DF, you will encounter all kinds. Like the roulettes we queue for, the people are also random. Be prepared to deal with that or don't queue. People in this thread are making a pretty big deal out of players they will most likely spend only 15-20 minutes with at most. It takes more time to stop and lecture them. Sometimes it's better to let sleeping dogs lie.

[linayar]

Tbh he did win that argument. Finally called people out on their hypocrisy and double standards lmao.

Nah, nothing that the Alliance did could compare to what Varis planned to do, which would've been bad for the Eorzean tribes as well.

Pointing out someone's bad treatment is irrelevant when what you're trying to do will be worse.

Honest question, let us just say it is exaggerated why does that even matter?

Does that make what they experience less valid or not a concern?

Honest answer:

Yes, because this is a community, and the OP is trying to get the community to act in a certain way, but it is filled with diverse people with different values.

It's like the people who say the hardcore raiding community is toxic. There are people here who would say it's actually not and any toxicity is actually rare occurrences or even exaggerated. Even if so, that doesn't change people's individual anecdotal experiences, but people still wouldn't want the raiding community to be viewed by what people would claim to be the minority/exaggerated experience.

Wait but I thought people were all about giving someone the benefit of the doubt especially over issues over personal experience which can often not be proven to be false in such contexts though.

The benefit of the doubt only extends to admitting that people's experiences might be true. It doesn't extend to discussion on what should then be done about it. Other people could chime in with different experiences. Thus, taking all of them together, there could be discussion on how bad the problem really is or whether it even matters to the community as a whole. Also, context matters. Maybe it's a problem when you're trying to pug and learn/farm a difficult content, but not when you're just doing your daily roulette. Again, people have different experiences and opinions on it.

[Awha]

Nah, nothing that the Alliance did could compare to what Varis planned to do, which would've been bad for the Eorzean tribes as well.

Pointing out someone's bad treatment is irrelevant when what you're trying to do will be worse.

Honest answer:

Yes, because this is a community, and the OP is trying to get the community to act in a certain way, but it is filled with diverse people with different values.

It's like the people who say the hardcore raiding community is toxic. There are people here who would say it's actually not and any toxicity is actually rare occurrences or even exaggerated. Even if so, that doesn't change people's individual anecdotal experiences, but people still wouldn't want the raiding community to be viewed by what people would claim to be the minority/exaggerated experience.

The benefit of the doubt only extends to admitting that people's experiences might be true. It doesn't extend to discussion on what should then be done about it. Other people could chime in with different experiences. Thus, taking all of them together, there could be discussion on how bad the problem really is or whether it even matters to the community as a whole. Also, context matters. Maybe it's a problem when you're trying to pug and learn/farm a difficult content, but not when you're just doing your daily roulette. Again, people have different experiences and opinions on it.

What I am saying is the perceptions of others regarding on the validity of the claims be it the frequency or if the community is toxic in the case of your raiding example seems kinda of moot at the heart of the discussion present and only seems to add conflict. Generally, as a forum we may disagree with the claim for whatever reason be it faulty or not. We can still have a discussion on the matter, even if nothing may come from it.

Though having that discussion is hard when people focus on aspects of their claim that to be fair at the very least is kinda irrelevant. Sure the OP’s post did not help, but also having others jump on the bandwagon that focuses on the the exaggerated point does nothing either to move the discussion along.

Personally when I give people the benefit of the doubt just as I did with this thread and many others I focus on core point of the OP and hope to have a discussion about it, the context that brought about the thread does not matter much to me personally, all that matters if the core topic and what kind of discussion could be hand around it. Many of my most enjoyable discussions I have had on this forum really stemmed from a topic that by in large would never be fixed by SE. I do think many of the claims regarding straw mans or being hyperbolic would go to the way side if people forgo this aspect of trying to win a debate or prove the other side wrong by looking past the flaws in the OP and had an open discussion regarding why people may feel like the OP in terms of having a community that enables poor play.

Like personally I do not care if people call PvE or PvP toxic because in their eyes it very well can be, though I would still love to have a discussion as to why they may feel that way just to gain a greater understanding for how players think or feel about certain things. Though it appears such things boils down to many people as either arguing for the sake of arguing or trolling. Which is a shame because their are some interesting views regarding the stance that FFXIV does foster a sense of poor play is fine just due to the nature of content, and while I know SE will not do anything about it is also interesting to see what in theory could SE or the community do about it.

As you said people have different experiences so focusing on the frequency seems weird to me. Instead why not just talk about the core topic of their post which is they feel FFXIV has an enabling community, asking what do they mean by that having them expand on that, and then maybe just talking about steps they and others that feel that way can take to try and prevent such things, and maybe at the end in a hypothetical world talk about what in theory could be done alter that perception altogether.

Granted, I am the type of person that still sees value in a troll thread if it has an interesting topic at the core like the whole hide glamour option that was a fun thread for me because I got to see different insights to how people view their character.

[linayar]

all that matters if the core topic and what kind of discussion could be hand around it.

What do you think is the core topic? To me, based on the OP, it's asking what the community can do to fix the OP's negative experiences:

What can we do about it? It seems to infect almost every corner of this game.

To answer that question/discuss that topic fully, you'd have to start with whether there needs to be anything done about it in the first place, whether it has a noticeable impact to the community at large if indeed it truly "seems to infect every corner" of FFXIV.

It's actually a pretty broad topic because the OP also mentioned "creepy habits" and such in PFs. There's some nuance to the answer depending on the specific part in discussion.

[Lanadra]

Another thing to add onto Linayar's point. The OP also ignores any and all solutions offered that would allow people to minimize the issue for themselves. Instead insisting on silly things like 'tiered df' or 'automatic kick if some arbitrary number isn't met'. OP and a good few of the folks that agree with them also keep insisting 'SE should/could do x, y and z' when they know already that SE won't. That is why I for example have been so explicit in stating what they themselves can do rather than relatively pointlessly discuss what they feel SE, or even funnier, those bad actors themselves, should do. You can say a hundred times that you feel all these bad players should do something.. but it's exactly because of their nature, namely, malicious malcontents, that you should already know they won't.

On the matter of exaggeration and such, yes, sure, you can still have a discussion, but that goes both ways. OP and most of those that share their view have been just as dismissive if not even more dismissive towards anyone that says 'I don't share your experience', either calling us blind, liars or outright accusing us of just 'defending these bad actors' out of some weird desire to perpetuate the problem.

[StriderShinryu]

Another thing to add onto Linayar's point. The OP also ignores any and all solutions offered that would allow people to minimize the issue for themselves. Instead insisting on silly things like 'tiered df' or 'automatic kick if some arbitrary number isn't met'. OP and a good view of folks that agree with them also keep insisting 'SE should/could do x, y and z' when they know already that SE won't. That is why I for example have been so explicit in stating what they themselves can do rather than relatively pointlessly discuss what they should SE, or even funnier, those bad actors themselves, should do. You can say a hundred times that you feel all these bad players should do something.. but it's exactly because of their nature, namely, malicious malcontents, that you should already know they won't.

On the matter of exaggeration and such, yes, sure, you can still have a discussion, but that goes both ways. OP and most of those that share their view have been just as dismissive if not even more dismissive towards anyone that says 'I don't share your experience', either calling us blind, liars or outright accusing us of just 'defending these bad actors' out of some weird desire to perpetuate the problem.

Very much the truth. And on that last point, I find it particularly funny when there have been many of us who have specifically championed actually helping those who are struggling get told you can't help anyone because doing so will get you reported and insta-banned. I'm not really sure how actively wanting to help and offering to help (particularly in light of the supposed omnipresent threat of the ban hammer) constitutes enabling anyone. If anything, wanting to escape the supposed rabble with forced kicks and locked out DF tiers is a much more "enabling" perspective.

[Awha]

Personally I do not think the quality of the discussion or merit of the discussion is not predicated on the notion that a problem is large enough to solve especially which issues that by in large will not be solved by SE or even the community.

Though I am a fan of discussing hypothetical situations and problems. My view of the core problem with the OP is in the title that FFXIV has a culture that enables what they view as poor play. Which I think could be an interesting discussion.

[Awha]

Sorry on moblie. Though I will say that I disagree with the notion that of kicking those one view as a problem as enabling mainly because it is overall not my place to tell another person how to play. Idc how someone plays that is why I do not ask people to change I just wait the 5 min and start the vote. People are free to play how they want and while I may question why someone may want to play a certain way it is not my desire to educate others on how to play. If someone wants to improve by in large I do think they will take the time to personally reflect on why they may have been removed and thus take steps to avoid such things if they are removed often. That is why i feel people should kick people more often.