Final Fantasy XIV and a Culture of Enabling

[Nethereal]

As for what the game can (and should) do because I do feel that while I feel the complaints in this thread are massively overblown, the game does a terrible job of teaching players how to play and does very little to encourage improvement:

- I do think there should be a next step up from Hall of the Novice that does teach some basic things like when you should use AoE and DoTs, that you should add in some DPS if/when you can as a Healer, that as a tank you should try to control enemy facing/location and use your cooldowns, etc. Nothing too complex and, most important, no numbers. Just clear and simple instructions. Fold in here for every role that you are playing in a party and it's the responsibility of everyone in the group to pull their own weight
- I do think that the Hall of the Intermediate (or whatever it's called) should be made mandatory at a relatively early point in the game (Novice opens at 16? so maybe 40 for Intermediate). Heck, if you put it at level 40 you could even fold it's completion into both MSQ and your Class quests so you knock them all off at once
- I do think that job stones should become required equipment to enter dungeons after level 35. It's not really a topic of this thread but I've seen it mentioned elsewhere and it really is silly that it's not a thing already
- I do think that there should be a simplified grading system sort of like a report card at the end of specific MSQ dungeons and trials. It doesn't even have to be all of them to lessen the work for the devs if/when significant balancing changes are made in the future. No rewards or penalties and, as in Hall of the Intermediate, no numbers. Just a letter grade based on how much damage you did, how much damage you took, how much damage you healed, etc. Have the game itself make it very clear what the player is doing well at and what they are failing at. Now that we have Trusts in post 70 content, maybe fold this into the Trust system and encourage players who do poorly in certain areas to work on their weaknesses in a Trust. Heck, you could even have the Trust NPCs call out to the player to give pointers.

These are all very good ideas and I agree that numbers serve no place in educational content like this, simply being taught the basics and your personal growth from there is all that's needed.
It would be amazing if in some hall tanks are taught that dps have positionals and that moving the boss unnecessarily is heart breaking and often times does more harm than good.
A grading system with cards or medals that only you can see after you complete a dungeon(I find being graded mid instance is often times distracting) is also another staple in generally trying to improve the whole.
It would be great to get it combined into msq and class quests as well.

The whole job stone thing definitely should be mandatory but then all those "I'm Archer" and "I'm Gladiator" people will be gone.

[BlitzAceRush]

Here’s my issue with this. I would 100% agree with you if this was a single player game. The fact of the matter is this: It’s a multiplayer game. You’re playing with other people. Your actions affect these other people. I understand with wanting to solely experience MSQ. But if they can take the time to play the game enough to get through 3-4 expansions, in my mind, then they can take 10-20 minutes to do this test we’re suggesting. All we’re asking is for them to learn to know basic mechanics whether it be using aoes or whatnot. I don’t think anyone’s asking them to be the most skillful players in the world.We’re just asking for them to put forth SOME effort since in the end this isn’t a single player game it’s multiplayer. Now yes SE did implement the very easy mode to instances and that’s fine. But i don’t think that gets in the way of them implementing a test to teach players mechanics or a built in one via msq. I just think SE is very disconnected from the playerbase so there’s a lot of issues they don’t even know about or realize.

A test that just points this stuff out fixes nothing, because the people that want to know already know, those that are confused but want to know have already asked someone or sought the information out themselves and the people that don't want to know or don't care will just look up a guide, follow it and then either resume putting in no effort or have not really learned anything because rather than paying attention to the information given, they just followed the steps to success to get it over with as quickly as possible. I agree with the information being in the game, making people pass tests just to get through the MSQ won't make people who didn't want to be better, better.

Yes, this is a multiplayer game, but there is a divide, the normal modes are designed to be easy and a lot of them one and done's outside of a few like the Alliance raids or the EX dungeon roulette you're only expected to run them once, unless you actively chose to use the roulettes, either for XP or tomes, in that instance you are agreeing to help people clear content, yes in some cases that means carrying worse players, that's why they offer incentives.

The "I picked a healer to heal not DPS" I'm not opening this debate, but I am using it to prove a point, while people vary on where they stand on this subject, I've seen many insist healers shouldn't DPS at all, and they won't, they will not throw out a single offensive ability the whole dungeon, no one needs healing? Good, nothing for me to do then. I mean, their mentality to have, but here's the thing, how exactly did they get into your EX dungeon? How are they in your Yorha raid? They DPS'd, they had to through all the quests and all the solo instances, they had to do the thing the claimed healers shouldn't do, simply because they had no choice, didn't change their stance though, they just did it because they had to and stopped as soon as they didn't.

As an aside, WoW did try this with Proving Grounds, it really didn't work out, a lot of people complained they couldn't do it, while the forums were just as full of people complaining about bad people in their parties, so it effectively just gated people without fixing anything.

The problem with all these test ideas for normal modes is none of them will actually make the people who don't want to try or the people who think they know better suddenly change, even if someone is ignorant of something for example. "Why would I use the AOE skills? They deal way less damage than my normal skills!" You could force them to do the test, they do it their way, fail obviously, get annoyed, look up how to do it, find out that you are in fact supposed to use the AOE skills as it's the only way to actually clear this test. So they use them, clear the test and then have zero reason to keep using them. Tests only teach the willing, in fact a prime example of this already kind of exists in the game right now.

Adding more comprehensive ingame information as well as expanding the hall of the Novice is good, giving people tools to help themselves improve is good and as I said adding in Adept and Master as gates to High end will help bridge people trying to transition, but forcing tests into normal level content won't have the effect people seem to think it will, actual leechers will not change, the ignorant will either do the test and go back to thinking they're right or scream on the forums for nerfs and those that struggle but are trying were doing their best either way and now even though they know this stuff might just be stuck behind the test due to being too slow or not good enough if it's more than just a quiz, this is ignoring any disabled people getting caught up in all this who know they're not able to do higher end content and were fine with that but are now locked out of the game simply because they can't do the test.

TLDR: The lazy and the stubborn will not change due to a single test, more optional learning tools is good, tests and gates for high end content would help there, those willing to learn don't need a gate put in front of them, just more resources to learn from, the community just needs to do some of the regulating, don't want "bad" players? Make your own parties.

Eddit: Job stones was something I forgot about, I don't know why they're not already, but they really should be mandatory, I would assume it's something to do with jank with the Class system, but they should really try and find a way.

[KizuyaKatogami]

*mini snip*
Adding more comprehensive ingame information as well as expanding the hall of the Novice is good, giving people tools to help themselves improve is good and as I said adding in Adept and Master as gates to High end will help bridge people trying to transition, but forcing tests into normal level content won\\'t have the effect people seem to think it will, actual leechers will not change, the ignorant will either do the test and go back to thinking they\\'re right or scream on the forums for nerfs and those that struggle but are trying were doing their best either way and now even though they know this stuff might just be stuck behind the test due to being too slow or not good enough if it\\'s more than just a quiz, this is ignoring any disabled people getting caught up in all this who know they\\'re not able to do higher end content and were fine with that but are now locked out of the game simply because they can\\'t do the test.

TLDR: The lazy and the stubborn will not change due to a single test, more optional learning tools is good, tests and gates for high end content would help there, those willing to learn don\\'t need a gate put in front of them, just more resources to learn from, the community just needs to do some of the regulating, don\\'t want "bad" players? Make your own parties.

Eddit: Job stones was something I forgot about, I don\\'t know why they\\'re not already, but they really should be mandatory, I would assume it\\'s something to do with jank with the Class system, but they should really try and find a way.

I just don’t see why this couldn’t be tested out at least though. I’d love to see it implemented and then see the data on if there’s any improvements. There really is no reason not to implement it and it doesn’t hurt anyone to have it in.Also in regards to people not knowing.There are people that genuinely think they’re playing correctly when they’re not aoing etc. So they may not know unless either someone tells them or if this test is implemented, the game tells them.In regards to your last point. I don’t see how people could be stuck behind the test based on the ways people have said to implement it. If they get stuck behind a test asking for basic aoes and tanking/healing, then they really shouldn’t be playing the game lol. Even in regards to disabled people, i don’t see how they wouldn’t be able to accomplish this test, it would be very basic. That just seems like a random reason to be against something like this but doesn’t make much sense to me at all.

[MilkieTea]

snip of life

Eddit: Job stones was something I forgot about, I don't know why they're not already, but they really should be mandatory, I would assume it's something to do with jank with the Class system, but they should really try and find a way.

Wait no pls don't make job stones mandatory, I take them off for extra hud space. Just make them mandatory in pugs.

[Nethereal]

TLDR: The lazy and the stubborn will not change due to a single test, more optional learning tools is good, tests and gates for high end content would help there, those willing to learn don't need a gate put in front of them, just more resources to learn from, the community just needs to do some of the regulating, don't want "bad" players? Make your own parties.

The test isn't supposed to change the lazy or the stubborn it's to force players to increase their general knowledge whether they actually apply them afterwards is irrelevant what matters is that the information is extremely convenient and available in-game without having to consult another player and gives no one the excuse of "I didn't know".

The tests are not supposed to change people who don't want to change or think they know better they're supposed to help everyone else and by proxy help the community regulate itself.

Edit: I also want to say that yes the people who are willing to learn do need a gate put in front of them. I was willing to learn since day 1 of this game but I never actively sought it out and had no actual improvement as a player till much much later simply because I had never been told anything pertaining to certain knowledge and as ffxiv is a one of a kind hadn't even thought to ask the question, even looking at my skill descriptions didn't do certain things justice.
Players who are willing to learn and improve are essentially being robbed of all the possible experiences and practice they could be getting earlier on in the game simply because it's not convenient and nothing is ever said about it.

The essence of tests and quizs has never been to change anything about anyone but to inform everyone about everything.

[Lanadra]

-holy mother of snips-

+1 to all of this.

[Penthea]

I play on Chaos and on Light and I don't see it. That's not to say there aren't problems with maybe new content with people learning mechanics.

Pretty much my experience in EU. I rarely see very bad players and when I do see very poor performance it's usually in new content or someone being new to the content. I of course do encounter bad players outside of those scenarios but not often enough that I even remotely dread DF or frequently finish content being very unhappy with how much I had to carry someone.

That's not to say there aren't differences in data centers because i'm sure there are.

Well there's only two possible scenarios.

1: OP is greatly exaggerating how many horrendous players they encounter

2: There is a serious problem going on in NA

Sure data centres can and do differ, I see it myself in Chaos and Light. But I find it hard to believe that in NA the quality of pugs in DF is so low that it doesn't even sound like they're playing the same game as I am.

Lets pretend for a moment OP's problem is really happening and it is much more of a problem in NA than anywhere else. I don't see SE doing much of anything about it. They would look at the other regions and think "well they're doing fine so it can't be the game encouraging this behaviour".

Yea SE could introduce more advanced versions of the novice hall, and I do think they should, but if the problem is mostly lazy players, which is what OP seems to think, well those players are only going to put in the effort when they can't be carried so novice hall additions wouldn't fix that. Being lazy doesn't mean you don't know how to play, it means you knowingly do less than you can.

Okay so the game could reward effort but then that's venturing into the realms of grading individual performance which is something SE has repeatedly said that they are against. So that's not going to happen either.

The only thing players like OP can do is take themselves out of the equation and give lazy players less hardworking players to rely on. Which means pre-made groups. Perhaps OP should make a linkshell that only allows skilled players to become members. I was in a group like this a long time ago in WoW. I will say though that while pugging within that group was great for completing content, the attitude was very elitist and I got tired of it very quickly.

[Awha]

Or we can just kick those people from groups maybe if more people removed them they will learn.

[Vahlnir]

Or we can just kick those people from groups maybe if more people removed them they will learn.

Might work for some, others might think "Why did those jerks kick me?!" and will come to the forums to complain. Either way, we usually only hear one side of the story, and there's always some details that are conveniently left out.

[KageTokage]

I had a level-skipped tank show up in Titania normal without their job stone equipped once. They really need to just require you to use the thing for all level 30+ content.

I think they also need to revamp the ilvl requirements into more of a general "power level" system like some other MMOs do, because I regularly see people cheesing the requirements by only equipping new accessories while still using horribly outdated leftside gear.