I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[linayar]

Honestly, if it's about "self-expression," then just make cosmetic options.

Like, if you could have the option of switching the effects of astral and umbral for BLM. It'd still (mostly) be the same job, but you'd have noticeably visual difference between those who want to be a Fire Mage and those who want to be a Blizzard Mage.

Things like that could be nice, but the complete job should be independent from other jobs and have all of its abilities accessible at the same time to the player regardless of any cosmetic option chosen.

[EirolOcarrol]

Well, do note that me saying for you to play FFXI doesn't mean you can't play FFXIV as well. I'm just saying that, if you want to get that subjob "itch" scratched, do it in FFXI, a game that has already been designed with that system, and play FFXIV for the things that you like about FFXIV.

I'd personally prefer to have the best of both worlds. A combat system or combat mechanic isn't enough to make me play a game, it's just a nice feature that I think is better about XI than XIV.

When I get an itch to play Final Fantasy XI, it is about the story and worldbuilding first and foremost. When I play XIV, it's because I miss the world, graphics, sidequests, and general activities. When I get an itch to play Final Fantasy XI, it's because I miss Windurst and roaming the overworld.
It's not such much an itch, so much as constant feeling of missing out and remembering something better when playing XIV. Not important enough to make one quit or go play other things, but definitely enough to remind you of better things.

[linayar]

I'd personally prefer to have the best of both worlds.

Well, you can't currently have that in FFXIV and I hope it's never going to be possible in FFXIV because I don't like that system, as I've explained in my first post in this thread.

[EirolOcarrol]

Honestly, if it's about "self-expression," then just make cosmetic options.

Like, if you could have the option of switching the effects of astral and umbral for BLM. It'd still (mostly) be the same job, but you'd have noticeably visual difference between those who want to be a Fire Mage and those who want to be a Blizzard Mage.

Things like that could be nice, but the complete job should be independent from other jobs and have all of its abilities accessible at the same time to the player regardless of any cosmetic option chosen.

I was going to mention how it would have to involve a much more extensive version of glamour than we have now, because not only are there limited options for each class. But also the way they hold and move their weapons.

But I'm compelled to talk more about Black Mage since that's a particular sore spot for me. A Realm Reborn ruined Black Mage for me. I loved playing and mained Thaumaturge in 1.0. And had a great time exploring the vastness of The Black Shroud, using level ups to explore more areas. When they moved to the Astral/Umbral system, it felt awful. I had always loved mages in Final Fantasy XI, and Thaumaturge was similarly fun to play. I tried and tried to adjust since I always viewed myself as a Black Mage in spirit for years. But I just couldn't adjust to liking the Astral Umbral system. I'll probably go back to Black Mage eventually

They can do some things that would appeal to my tastes without necessarily having subjobs, imperfectly, and they wouldn't be good for others, with more extensive cosmetics, or new jobs, to a small extent. It would be a big compromise, but a cosmetic system that would allow me to wield a katana as a Red Mage and cast curing spells is essentially what I want personally out of a subjob system. Or at least one of the main appeals. There are other things, but essentially a Samurai Mage would kind of work a little.

However, Black Mages I am absolutely not happy with. Years ago, I would have told you that Black Mage will always be my favourite class, no matter what. I never expected them to ever implement something as disappointing as the Astral Fire Umbral Ice system, however. It doesn't feel like playing a Black Mage/Thaumaturge at all. It's really unfun and I don't think I'll ever enjoy playing it as I once did. They ruined Black Mage for me I'm sad to say. I've tried and tried to like it, but I can't. It's just not Black Mage, and is perhaps the only job I wish would get a complete overhaul. I dislike the Astral Umbral System and love Black Mages, so this has been painful for me to see my favourite Final Fantasy job turned into something that feels like a chore to play.

[dezzmont]

Honestly, if it's about "self-expression," then just make cosmetic options.

Like, if you could have the option of switching the effects of astral and umbral for BLM. It'd still (mostly) be the same job, but you'd have noticeably visual difference between those who want to be a Fire Mage and those who want to be a Blizzard Mage.

Things like that could be nice, but the complete job should be independent from other jobs and have all of its abilities accessible at the same time to the player regardless of any cosmetic option chosen.

I would pay 20 dollars, or an extra few bucks in my sub if necessary, to get access to a bunch of 'Job glams.' Different spell/ability effects, different weapon options (How rad would it be to get a NIN that is a thief that uses PLD swords and item themes for Ninjutsu?), Egi glamours, a "Red Wizard" as a SCH or WHM so we could get a Red Magic themed healer, ect. Monk with a staff named Blackbelt, anyone?

Like I get that would be a nightmare for them to maintain, but a little part of me hopes that part of the 'point' of BLU was to give them the infrastructure to create a 'Spell Glamour' mechanic that lets you change the visuals of your abilities, like rotating around what kinda Black Mage spells you use for what task.

[TaleraRistain]

I wonder, since I don't play it, would WoW be considered an example of the other end of this extreme? As I've understood it, there is (was?) more room for customization and variety, but as the game has aged, as I've heard, it's taken a strong shift towards "meta or get out."

Which, if I have the right of it, I wouldn't say is something that's exclusively contained to the game. That's just gamers today. We're increasingly connected, with the ability to crowd-share so much information so quickly now, it's a currently inescapable mindset of being best or quickest.

This isn't even gamers today. I remember this crap back in Diablo II when you got on Battle.net. Do whatever you want in a solo or co-op game with your friends but there were only the "right" builds out there with strangers. Same with the Talent trees in WoW. I mainly just soloed or small grouped in that game up to Pandaria because I chose the trees that were interesting for me, not what others thought I should.

[LisSquid]

I would pay 20 dollars, or an extra few bucks in my sub if necessary, to get access to a bunch of 'Job glams.' Different spell/ability effects, different weapon options (How rad would it be to get a NIN that is a thief that uses PLD swords and item themes for Ninjutsu?), Egi glamours, a "Red Wizard" as a SCH or WHM so we could get a Red Magic themed healer, ect. Monk with a staff named Blackbelt, anyone?

Like I get that would be a nightmare for them to maintain, but a little part of me hopes that part of the 'point' of BLU was to give them the infrastructure to create a 'Spell Glamour' mechanic that lets you change the visuals of your abilities, like rotating around what kinda Black Mage spells you use for what task.

It could be made into content, too. I can name quite a few games that had spell glamour tied to class specific quest chains. The only reward being turning your fire spells green, your arrows are now made of light, you're holy templar is now umbral themed..

[EirolOcarrol]

Another false conclusion of elitists, the idea that if you don’t follow the meta you must be bad which indirectly implies if you do follow the meta blindly you must be a good player lol

Beyond some of the harsh language and seeming pessimism, I would say that this is a problem for the wider MMORPG genre.

I think that metagaming itself is harmful for the role playing games. A genre that was about adventure and immersion that came from Dungeons and Dragons, it's important to look back to Dungeons and Dragons. This is a social game without the pressure to play well, and without a meta. Because it was about playing a role first, and your ability to play well was limited by dice rolls, and wherever the Game Master wanted to move things.

You can go for silly ideas in Dungeons and Dragons, but as long as it's lore appropriate, most of your friends are happy to put up with it.

It's one thing to turn a Party Game like Super Smash Bros. into a competitive fighting game. It makes sense, the mechanics were built upon the fighting game genre, despite having platform elements. Role playing games are entirely different, though. They're fundamentally about creative expression, that's the point of role playing games.

Creative expression and playing a role, being your own character, that is the point of all role playing games.

You are a spontaneous actress or actor, playing the role of citizen in a fantasy world as you see fit. Writing your own story as you play.

I feel like people have lost sight of this. Where even people in content that isn't that challenging are expected to already know and following specific strategies. But if anything, the thing that RPGs are supposed to feel is unpredictable.

Efficiency is not that important. People will spent hours roleplaying, learning to play an instrument in game, all sorts of non-meta things that don't lead to speedy progression of any sort.

I wish that meta wasn't creeping into so many games. Shooters and Fighting games and MOBAs, that sounds great. For role playing games, I'd prefer us to actually have an online gaming genre that's not meta based. I feel like this wasn't always the case, though I could be wrong, what was the meta of Ultima Online? What playstyle would get you kicked out of a party?

At this rate, I wish someone would make a Massively Multiplayer Online Adventure game, I feel like it would ironically seem more like a role playing game than most MMORPGs today.

[GrizzlyTank]

Sub job in FFXIV would essentially boil down to 1-3 extra buttons or thematic changes to existing buttons. Like a BLM which puts more emphasis on thunder than fire/blizzard.

Though if this could mean non-a**se running animations for gunbreaker and ninja i would be for it.

[GrizzlyTank]

This isn't even gamers today. I remember this crap back in Diablo II when you got on Battle.net. Do whatever you want in a solo or co-op game with your friends but there were only the "right" builds out there with strangers. Same with the Talent trees in WoW. I mainly just soloed or small grouped in that game up to Pandaria because I chose the trees that were interesting for me, not what others thought I should.

Remember someone posting a picture from BFA between two talent setups, one being optimal and the other being thematic... Safe to say the optimal one was over twice as good.

Best iteration of talents WoW have had so far would be the artefact weapons and not the current talent system. This was because there was no choice other than farming some buffs for the lesser talents which were pretty much just minor % increase in something. Though there were some exceptions to this too like unkillable warlocks cause they buffed the self heal trait to max.