I think I want subjobs more than I want job balance.

[EirolOcarrol]

Okay, more than I think. I definitely want this.

Among many things about Final Fantasy XI that I miss is this. During the early days of XIV, they were fairly close to this idea and lineage. But have moved further and further away that since.

And.. I've felt sad about that ever since! All the systems in Final Fantasy Online I like most it seems like they moved away from most. I miss subjobs.

As with a lot of these things where people say "I like this about Final Fantasy XI", a lot of people will respond with "then you should go play Final Fantasy XI". And, I mean, yes, that too. Returning to Vana'diel is always a good idea.

But also, I feel like there are things that Final Fantasy XI does better than Final Fantasy XIV, and things about Final Fantasy XIV that are better than XI. It would be nice to have more of the great parts of XI in XIV, I think.

Final Fantasy XIV started off as a XI-2. Albeit rushed and unfinished. And for better or worse, XIV has become its own thing, with a hyperfocus on an MSQ and instancing. But personally, I kind of wanted XI-2 from the beginning. A bigger, better, grander XI.

But that would be a lot of things.
And honestly, just one thing, that would make me very, very happy that I miss, is subjobs. Leaving subjobs behind hurts. It left for so much creativity and self expression. And is one of the best things, that Final Fantasy XI is famous for.

Being able to have a personalized skillset, by fusing two jobs you've focused on together is just.. so much fun! I miss subjobs! It's one of the things that hurts most about transitioning from XI to XIV. I'd love to enjoy all of the great things about XIV, while also having a crowning feature of XI.

This may be a strange thing to say on a super excited and hyping up story patch day. But I tried to nap to prepare for 5.5 tonight. And I couldn't get this off my mind. So I got up to post it. I laid down in bed thinking about what I'd like for Final Fantasy XIV, and my history with the series. And I kept thinking about subjobs.

I know it would be a lot of work to make such a thing "work", and the system as it stands wasn't necessarily made to accommodate it. But honestly, in my heart I just want subjobs, I don't care what it breaks. Subjobs are worth it.

Only a slightly lesser note, I miss many things about the early combat system in general aside from the slowness. I miss elemental damage mattering. I miss old Black Mage. I miss a lot of things.

[linayar]

It left for so much creativity and self expression.

In terms of class/job system, I could never see the point. All it seems to mean, whether in the form of talent system, specialization, subclass/subjob, or even FFXIV's own additional actions, is that you cannot have everything that your class/job is technically able to do.

I prefer FFXIV's current job system because it means I can get everything that my job is supposed to be able to do via the time honored RPG process of leveling (and completing certain class/job-specific quests).

The idea of having to limit a class/job for the sake of "creativity" or "self-expression" is very unappealing, though one I'm forced to tolerate in multiple games, which is why I'm glad that there is one game (FFXIV) that doesn't force me to tolerate that situation.

[Hasrat]

Always one thing worth keeping in mind when pining over a bit of nostalgia: Is the community as a whole in a position similar enough to the past to be accepting of those old systems? I'd argue that the gaming community as it is now has evolved somewhat in the past x many years. Games have to keep up with trends, and what worked once upon a time could just as easily be universally panned if any company tried it again.

[Dzian]

While I liked subjobs I'll admit they were far from perfect,
Many of them just didn't scale well at all which meant that many potentially fun combinations were just outright dead.. 75/37 SMN/BLM for example. Having access to offensive BLM nukes sounds cool but at level 75, they really didnt do much. same goes for things like 75/37 NIN/RNG. exploring the idea of being a shurikan throwing ninjutsu demon. But again the 37 RNG traits didnt work so well, although that was also hampered by the lack of weapons skils for throwing weapons.

Some however were great fun and opened up good options. I spent many an hour on a 75/37 MNK/WAR as a solid tank having some serious fun with counterstance. even tore bosses a new one. yeah Byakko had triple attack just meant I had triple counters. You could put some really effective parties together if you had a bit of flexibility. So many jobs could tank very effectively but so many people would still be sat waiting for a pld or ninja to make a party.

NIN/DNC wasa pretty effective solo machine I made good use of that combo quite often helping new smns unlock pacts with the various avatars.

The problem in XIV though is the jobs already play so much the same and have been homogenized so much that a subjob wouldn't really add anything. mnk/sam blm/smn.. pld/war. it might open up avenues for solo such as drg/sch but wouldnt bring much to group content I dont think.

There however things about XI I do very much agree XIV could make good use of.

One of the best the best things about XI in my time playing was its sheer flexibility. So easy to include everyone if you wanted to go and do Dynamis, Appollyon, or most other content. It didnt matter if 8 people wanted to go or 9, 13, 16, or even 20... You could always go.. In XIV its always 4-8 occassionally 24 or gtfo. which has been known to cause alot of upset in various groups over the years.. Back when heaven on high came out we wanted to go all the way to the top and ended up causing problems because 6 of wanted to do it but only 4 could so either none of you go or 2 of you get left out... It really doesnt help foster strong social connections.

The same is often true with mount farms and stuff. When 6-7 of our FC want to go and help 1 or 2 of the group get a mount and we cannot enter that fight without an 8th pug and sods law dictates that if the mount drops they're the one that will win it then they'll bail and your back at square one looking for another pug to rinse and repeat..

XI was so much better in this regard.. and I think thats demonstrated by how much closer and more robust social circles were back then..

The other Area I think XI blows XIV out of the water is the world itself.. Compared to Vana'diel, Eorzea is this bland lifeless emptiness where nothing ever happens or changes. It's dead. you can walk out of Ul'dah get on a chocobo ride all the way to Rhalgrs Reach and count the number of players you see out in the world on one hand most of the time. Nothing players do makes any impact on the world either. Take fates for a big example.. win a fate lose a fate. it makes no difference in the world.

Vana'diel was living breathing ever changing world where literally everything a player did changed the world in some way. Every monster you killed had some impact on the balance of power for conquest tallies or later campaign strongholds. and the balance of power affected so much like outpost availability, vendor prices and stocks. which then shaped the economy. Beseiged also shaped the world. if you lost the candescance you couldnt teleport, until you went out and recovered it. you couldn't use certain vendors as theyd be kidnapped and needed to be rescued.

You had a much more diverse set of zones in Vana'diel too. Underground zones, mines, volcanoes, outdoor zones, desserts, jungles, inddor zones, castles, defkaults tower, sky, sea, In Eorzea you get none of that variety it's all just big open outdoor emptiness.

Zones were alive and dynamic to. The Sacrarium had a maze that had a different path through every game day. Was quite fun if you were half way through at midnight and all the walls were moving around you. You had gate puzzles in the necropolis, citadel,ssg, and qsc. the 3 mage gate in toramei canal. so much stuff that just made the world more interesting and lively.

And you actually saw players out in the world. many a time you could be running through an area and actually see an epic battle going on with a group of players fighting an NM or mission boss or something such. or even just exping or skilling up.. All of it just made Vana'diel alive.

Even airships. actually flew over the world. you could be on an airship look over the side and see the highlands below.. at the same time players in the highlands could look up and see the airship flying overhead. so many little things.

It sucks that all of this was possible 20 years ago.. and with all the advancements in tech and hardware. Eorzea is so dead, static and lifeless..

[Seraphor]

I love the sub-job systems from other Final Fantasies, but I don't think it works in a modern MMO.
1. It limits the depth of any single job, so as jobs get progressively updated through expansions, there's less room to play with and change or add new skills.
2. It considerably impacts balance, to the point where so sub-job can significantly enhance any particular aspect of another job, and they'd feel very watered down.

[Tsukino]

They've made it a point to remove anything that could possibly make someone better or worse than another playing the same job (and often same role) due to customization choice.

Except for materia, which has been simplified several times itself, they've removed:

• stat allocation points on level up
• the ability to equip accessories from other roles for different stats
• cross-class abilities
• slots for role actions letting you choose which to set

In related changes that weren't expressly the removal of customization, they've also removed:

• all stances that give any sort of stat or ability trade-off
• several different sub-stats that weren't favorable on gear
• pets actually existing in the world, needing to be controlled, affected by AoEs, etc.
• TP and its ability to be depleted
• MP as an actual stat and all abilities that affect it except for one that's shared by everyone
• Protect, Shell, and Stoneskin

I love job/ability system games, FFV is my favorite in the series, and all the Bravely Default games are fantastic. But I can plainly see this goes against everything they do in FFXIV here.

Edit: I should also mention that one of the reasons they gave for making Blue Mage a silly minigame instead of an actual job was that players might not have the spells others expect them to.

[Rongway]

Subjob systems on single player FFs primarily work because they're single player games. The only person who has to put up with any consequences that might arise from my strange desire to make a full party of RDM with varying subjobs is me. Tactics party of off-the-wall job combinations I've chosen just because they match the personalities of my friends? Doesn't affect anyone but me.

In the golden days of FFXI, while you could sub whatever you wanted, there were a specific short list of sub jobs that were considered "acceptable" or "effective" and if your search info listed you as a subjob that didn't fall into the "effective" subjob list for your main job, you were asked to change or not invited at all. Exceptional content did exist of course, where unusual job combinations were unusually effective for gimmicky reasons specific to that content, and for those the opposite would happen--if you couldn't change to the super gimmicky subjob for that fight, you were uninvited. Aside from these situations, unusual sub job choices were only for soloing.

I don't believe the FFXIV community has the patience to put up with people choosing ineffective subjobs. We're very getIn-getOut. I, at least, would quietly, but begrudgingly, endure a run that takes five minutes longer because one or more of the other people I got matched with made poor subjob choices...and then tell them at the end that there were more effective subjobs that they should be taking into content instead. I know many people who would be more vocal--and more aggressive--about this earlier in the run rather than waiting until the end.

tl;dr: I just really don't see subjobs working here.

[Cetek14]

Customization > balance imo. As long as specific job is not obsolete due to absolute lack of balance.

[Jin-]

Agree. Moved to GW2 recently and it feels nice not to be a just another clone of mage there.

[EirolOcarrol]

Really off the wall job combinations are the best part about subjobs for me, personally. When all jobs become the same, or there becomes a meta, everything becomes repetitive. There becomes one way to clear a dungeon, one way to play a job, one combo set or "rotation". That's so incredibly boring and predictable.

It's far more interesting to see variety. And subjobs lead for so many endless combinations of skillsets. I think I'd rather not be invited to parties by meta-minded gamers with little patience for things outside of established strategies than put up with dull repetition.
During the earlier days of Final Fantasy XI, I liked to play Ninja with Red Mage as a subjob. Was it effective? No, because it didn't get access to either the better White Mage or Black Mage spells. But I liked the fact that it made me feel like a Ninja Red Mage. Some people told me I wasn't useful for their party, so I missed some invites in Kazham. Or was told to go play a White Mage at times, rather than Red Mage. But in the end, I had fun despite those negative and discouraging experiences.

If XIV let me do similar, I'd probably like to try something like Samurai with Red Mage as a subjob. Using a katana and being able to cast Verraise would be awesome.