RP Party finders being reported AGAIN without so much as a reason.

[Mirhd]

I don't think it goes quite that far. Credit where it's due and all that. I've debated with them enough that I truly believe that they believe what they are saying. I also believe them when they say they don't get it. And there is no reasoning with their...logic on this topic for that reason alone. That does make it so much worse though, in my opinion, compared to if they were trolling. Sadly, I don't believe that they are. This is the real deal.

He pretty much said it's just an overly emotional response where children are concerned, but I'll give you the last one. I really, really hope that isn't the case, but good-freaking-grief, he doesn't make himself look good, does he? Can't be bothered with him at this point. He's wrong on all accounts point blank, but he keeps insisting it's the other way around...

[Saefinn]

Cause I do not get it, the same could be said for some adults they may not have the capacity just because you are of adult age does not mean you have the understanding and world experience of an adult. Yet we still vilify said adults cause it is easy, we offering suggestions they should have know better, they should have erred on the side of caution etc . . . fine that may we true but if the same could be said for an adult that may not be mature enough to understand the queues of the world why is that not the case for children?

There's a few points, but it's a complicated issue, and we're looking at it from a high level and not at any depth because the law, biology and psychology are all complicated and complex things, so when we look at the law there's a lot more factors than, "are they an adult"? and "are they guilty?" If an adult commits a crime, all the circumstances around that crime are relevant. And some of those circumstances can surround their mental capacity, what they understand and so on. So the adults you're referring would not necessarily receive the same outcome as others who are of sound judgement

Minors should always be treated as minors. One's judgment on their maturity and level of understanding and experience can be flawed. That means of course, that it's never okay to do certain inappropriate things with them. This does mean the adult party has a responsibility to ensure they're not with a minor.
Adults should still be treated as adults, but how their maturity, their mental capacity and so on, should come into account too. Heck, "vulnerable adults" are thing too, which also means on the flip side, if somebody tries to take advantage of them or they do something wrong, the they get special protections too, as minors do...not the same ones obviously, but then vulnerable adults and minors are not the same thing.

Are all minors innocent? No. Should guilty minors be punished? Yes. And they do get punished. But how they're punished should be appropriate and their age taken into account.

But that's in terms of law. In terms of in game moderation, I don't think you should expect anything near as nuanced as the law, but how they moderate should be enough to keep players safe as much as can reasonably expected and keep the SE out of trouble and for maintaining the standard they want.

[Awha]

1

It's honestly ridiculous how you try to portray me as someone who just doesn't "get" autism, when it's clearly the other way around. You have your singular (milder) experience, while I actually do understand what it's like to interact/care for someone with severe autism - and mild. People who know those with autism tend to know other people who are, or know/work with those with autism at various levels, honey. We aren't talking ADD, ADHD, Aseburgers, etc., (which are part of the spectrum, and something I'm also familiar with), we're talking "nonverbal, cannot do daily tasks alone, cannot live alone" severe, and I thought that was bloody clear.

Are you seriously going to claim to me you understand what it's like to not be able to go to the bathroom on your own/wear a diaper well past age 10? To at times, when experiencing sensory overload, attempt to knock your skull against a wall over and over? I absolutely despise the "wearing helmets" stereotype because it's often used to insult people, but sometimes those helmets are necessary. It's very difficult to safely bring someone down from that state, which is why you carefully try to divert their attention to something else before it ever gets to that point, but it doesn't always work, and it's freaking heartbreaking. For all your spew about me not understanding, it's the opposite. My view of the autism spectrum is much, much broader than yours, despite your claimed, singular (milder) experience, and I don't particularly care if it sounds harsh at this point.



What really gets me is that he acts as if it's somehow irrational or overly emotional to basically say kids are not mentally developed and "don't ----ing diddle kids". What the bloody hell?

Once again what I am saying is caring for someone on the spectrum differs greatly from living with it. I never questioned you knowledge on the subject I questioned your understanding of how it is to live with it. Text books, seeing others, caring for others is no substitute for living with it. That is all I have been saying, and it just harkens back to my ABA, and group therapy where people around claim they understand because they have seen and dealt with x y and z, but really barely scraped the surface when it comes to living with it. Also the fact you think I am saying it is okay for people to diddle kids just goes to prove my point. In no way have I ever said that. What I am saying is if someone willfully lies and deceives another person for personal gain should be held to the same degree of accountability no matter the age. Cause in the end age is just a number, and it does not inherently determine the capacity of a person in terms of understanding the norms and cues around them. They may be light years behind their peers in those areas for a bevy of reasons.

As I said I do not doubt you know how to care for someone with varying degrees of ASD, but personally it drives me up a wall when people like yourself who are trained to deal with those on the spectrum use their training to try and understand what is going on in our heads. When in reality sometimes even we may not even understand what is going on, yet do understand to a degree at times. Do you know how painful it is to be in a store and you have an outburst and you are having what is akin to an out of body experience where you see your mother crying and begging you to claim down because you are waving around a sharp object? Do you know how it really feels to know what you are doing is wrong yet you are unable to stop yourself no matter how hard you try yet on some level you are aware to what is going on? Do you? I am sure you have seen, but have you experienced what it is like to feel like you have a thousand voices in your head telling you different things? Or feel as if you have all eyes on you for no reason other then existing?

This is why I say you do not understand how it is to live with it, because you really do remind me of many of my doctors, teachers, ABA therapists, group therapists etc . . . you seem like a nice and knowledgeable person that has many years of "dealing" with ASD but I am sorry I have many years of living with it and no matter what you or any other doctor tries to tell me you will never understand what it is like being up in my head. Also please do not think my case is mild, I do have some elements of control and have been able to go to school, and hold down jobs with varying degrees of success but every case is different I still have my outbursts that I cannot control, I know what it is like to go through sensory overload, though in my case I can barely but to a degree articulate what I am feeling during those moments.

That aside once again I do not think it is cool to diddle children, but if that is what you get from what I have said fine.

I don't think it goes quite that far. Credit where it's due and all that. I've debated with them enough that I truly believe that they believe what they are saying. I also believe them when they say they don't get it. And there is no reasoning with their...logic on this topic for that reason alone. That does make it so much worse though, in my opinion, compared to if they were trolling. Sadly, I don't believe that they are. This is the real deal.

You are right I do not see the difference, and as Mirhd has mentioned I do think it is largely an emotional response to protect the child, just as I said it is largely an emotion response from my point of view to protect the adults that may fall through the cracks due to the way out laws and society work. I do have reasoning with my logic I am sorry if I am not able to convey it in a matter that may make more sense though in my head it makes sense. That is often the case with many things I think about. Wish I could explain this with math, would be easier. Numbers are more my thing.

There's a few points, but it's a complicated issue, and we're looking at it from a high level and not at any depth because the law, biology and psychology are all complicated and complex things, so when we look at the law there's a lot more factors than, "are they an adult"? and "are they guilty?" If an adult commits a crime, all the circumstances around that crime are relevant. And some of those circumstances can surround their mental capacity, what they understand and so on. So the adults you're referring would not necessarily receive the same outcome as others who are of sound judgement

Minors should always be treated as minors. One's judgment on their maturity and level of understanding and experience can be flawed. That means of course, that it's never okay to do certain inappropriate things with them.
Adults should still be treated as adults, but how their maturity, their mental capacity and so on, should come into account too. Heck, "vulnerable adults" are thing too, which also means on the flip side, if somebody tries to take advantage of them or they do something wrong, the they get special protections too, as minors do...not the same ones obviously, but then vulnerable adults and minors are not the same thing.

Are all minors innocent? No. Should guilty minors be punished? Yes. And they do get punished. But how they're punished should be appropriate and their age taken into account.

But that's in terms of law. In terms of in game moderation, I don't think you should expect anything near as nuanced as the law, but how they moderate should be enough to keep players safe as much as can reasonably expected and keep the SE out of trouble and for maintaining the standard they want.

I get what you are saying, but that is my point vulnerable adults are not offered the same level of protect even though outside the age factor they may not be all that different from the minor. I do not get why that is the case, just because they are a minor? As you said a minor can commit some horrible actions yet their punishment for the same action is not equal in the eyes of the law cause of the age factor. Everything else could be on the same level, but the age alone is enough to add years on their punishment even though they easily could be the same in terms of general capacity.

Or in the case of a vulnerable adult that gets prayed on by a minor, sadly given the age even in the eyes of the law they are not treated with the same degree of consideration, and even if by some chance they escape criminal charges, society will still mark them as a villain just off the age in itself, ignoring the rest of the context. That is what I am getting at just not from a legal side but from a society aspect we need to take context into account and mark deficiencies as inherently an excuse. That is why I say if one methodology is fine under certain context, if the primary components that we as a person have no control over match up I think the same methodology should follow. So to threat minors that willfully lie and deceive to the same degree as we threat adults or with same general capacity despite their age in the same way and offer them the same degree of consideration as the minor or threat the minor as you would the adult with same degree of capacity. I get it is hard to judge such a metric and could be abused, but I still think it is only fair. If that makes any sense. By no means do I think adults should be free to pray on minors. Though I do not think minors should be free to pray on adults. I think the punishment for either action needs to be severe enough to act as a deterrent in both cases.

I guess overall this harkens back to a class I had while in university regarding the capacity of understanding an action and the ability to commit a crime. Our professor asked us if a man rapes a women but and it came be proven they do not understand what the concept of rape is should they be able to be charged with said rape. Most the class agreed that yes they should. Though when the professor posed the same question differently say if a child rapes a women should the child we charged with rape. It switched most said no, only a few handful kept their answer the same. I get it was a hypothetical, but I personally do not see the difference between either situation so I was in the yes camp for both. As mentioned I am not the most logically constant person I know this stance differs from stance above. It just throws me for a loop how people offer blind or inherent protections based off a number. It still throws me for a loop. I know my stance regarding children above the hypothetical differ greatly I am not the brightest bulb in the bunch and I am not very constant with my logic I often come from a place of emotion like most which I know makes it difficult to deal with. Though I do enjoy stuff like this cause it goes help me gain an better understanding as to how others think even if it may frustrate others, no hard feelings across the board I generally do not take anything said personal and I hope the same could be said for the things I say. Opinions may differ, but I hope to one day understand how others think and feel better.

[Mirhd]

...

You do realise there are professionals that train to do exactly what you insist they know nothing about? No, no one could ever know exactly what everyone thinks about at any given time of day, autistic or not - that's obvious. However, there are entire fields of study that focus solely on the mind, how it works, and said professionals do know a great deal about why people think what they think, and why. Not everything of course, but much more than they ever did 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago, etc., and the fact that you're willfully ignoring this is baffling.

Fact is, despite what you claim, you don't know what someone with severe autism deals with, as your case is clearly milder (in relation to someone who is a severe case, as I've said multiple times) in nature... whereas someone who has cared for said person has a much better understanding of it. That is my point. Trying to play the "I have autism, therefore I know everything/understand everything about it" really doesn't work here.

Maybe your clear aversion to professionals (to be clear, I am not, I merely cared for someone) stems from negligence on someones' part, and I won't begrudge you that; people with various levels of autism have been misunderstood/treated poorly in the past (and sometimes in the present... really deplorable cases), but many do know much more than the rest of us, and genuinely try to help. Hand-waving that is just dishonest, and doesn't help your case.

What it comes down to ultimately for me, (and what started this exchange in the first place...) is your implication that just because someone has autism, they're incapable of understanding basic law - here, the laws regarding not engaging in any sexual activity with minors. Someone who is NOT a severe case (a severe case wouldn't even be using a forum...) is QUITE capable of understanding "this is illegal. DON'T DO IT", and the fact that you insist otherwise is what made me question you in the first place, as I've stated more than once.

Also, maybe you meant something else, but hearing multiple voices telling you to do things isn't... really a characteristic of autism, but something else entirely. Autism is a developmental disorder, and auditory hallucinations don't factor into that.

[Awha]

You do realise there are professionals that train to do exactly what you insist they know nothing about? No, no one could ever know exactly what everyone thinks about at any given time of day, autistic or not - that's obvious. However, there are entire fields of study that focus solely on the mind, how it works, and said professionals do know a great deal about why people think what they think, and why. Not everything of course, but much more than they ever did 30, 40, 50, 60, 70 years ago, etc., and the fact that you're willfully ignoring this is baffling.

Fact is, despite what you claim, you don't know what someone with severe autism deals with, as your case is clearly milder (in relation to someone who is a severe case, as I've said multiple times) in nature... whereas someone who has cared for said person has a much better understanding of it. That is my point. Trying to play the "I have autism, therefore I know everything/understand everything about it" really doesn't work here.

Maybe your clear aversion to professionals (to be clear, I am not, I merely cared for someone) stems from negligence on someones' part, and I won't begrudge you that; people with various levels of autism have been misunderstood/treated poorly in the past (and sometimes in the present... really deplorable cases), but many do know much more than the rest of us, and genuinely try to help. Hand-waving that is just dishonest, and doesn't help your case.

What it comes down to ultimately for me, (and what started this exchange in the first place...) is your implication that just because someone has autism, they're incapable of understanding basic law - here, the laws regarding not engaging in any sexual activity with minors. Someone who is NOT a severe case (a severe case wouldn't even be using a forum...) is QUITE capable of understanding "this is illegal. DON'T DO IT", and the fact that you insist otherwise is what made me question you in the first place, as I've stated more than once.

Also, maybe you meant something else, but hearing multiple voices telling you to do things isn't... really a characteristic of autism, but something else entirely. Autism is a developmental disorder, and auditory hallucinations don't factor into that.

I did not mean auditory hallucinations, I am was saying that is what it feels like when I go through sensory overload. I know they are not hallucinations. That is my point it differs from person-to-person and we are learning more and more about it all the time. It is a wide spectrum, and let us be real who to say for some it may be auditory hallucinations who knows maybe they are unable to explain it due to their lack of ability to communicate or covey what they are feeling. That also reinforces what I was getting at, that is not how it works so thus it cannot be, I was just trying to explain what it feels like to me. I get it is an over-stimulation from the environment. Like I get the text books and years of training say one thing, but in some cases it may just differ that is why I often say those with professional training may get caught up with the text and data and often fail to view them as a person. I get it is a rough field to be in, and it is not an exact science. Though I wish more people that deal with it understand that the disorder does not define the person and as such what may fall into one camp may not be the same for another. If that makes sense.

What is frustrating for me I do not think I said someone on the spectrum does understand basic right or wrong or what is the law. That is not what I am getting at to a degree though I think general capacity of being able to know what the law stats and understanding the law may differ. My point remains that given certain experiences one may not pick up some general social norms and cues thus making them more naïve then their peers around them. I used ASD as an example because I find it easier to speak from personal experience instead of the abstract, cause in the abstract I am generally very black and white. One can understand the law, and know it is bad. Though if someone tells this person that they are of a certain age, should that person really be viewed as a monster because they trusted the person and could not pick up on the signs the person was lying about their age? I get it may come off that I think someone on the spectrum may not understand right from wrong or what the law is and should be free to do whatever. That is not what I am saying.

I just wish sometimes I could explain it better, but do you know how frustrating it is to have people that are trained in this tell you, no that is not what you are feeling? I know that is not exactly what I am feeling when have my outbursts or have moments of sensory overload, but that is really the only way I know how to convey it with my own words and experience. That is why I feel the way towards those that say they understand. Just like I do not think I have ever said I know how people with serve ASD feel, I believe I did say I do not know how they feel. Just like I said you do not know how they feel. If I implied as such I am sorry for the misunderstanding. Though I have just have my fill of ASD whisperer syndrome as my father use to coin it when my mom would take me to next best specialist. Personally, I like how my father always viewed me. I am not a set of behaviors, triggers, etc. . . I am my own person that has my own way of reacting and understanding certain things, He was also not a fan of doctors cause he was also not a fan of the labeling system with high and low functioning, he was one of the few people that saw me as my own person. Not just a person with ASD, like many doctors and caregivers in the field tend to view. Whenever I would express how I was feeling or what I felt like I was going through he just listened, unlike the litany of trained professionals saying that is not how it is, or how you should feel, etc . . . I know in my heart of hearts that is not how I should feel or how it is but as I mentioned it is just how it feels to me in those moments.

Like I get when I am in my outbursts I am not really watching my body from above, but I just cannot shake the feeling that in that moment I know what I am doing but due to confusion and not being able to express it something else takes over. Like if someone removes me from a math equation or puzzle I am trying to solve when I hyper focused on it, when I have an episode it I get from a text book point of view it plays out a certain way, but yeah. I am rambling at this point I hope you understand what I am trying to say across the board. I do not need you to agree or even care if you agree though I do hope I was able to express myself in such a way that you understand my perspective. As you said ASD is a devoplemt disorder, is it really that hard to fathom that everyone deveoplemt differing means of expression or various of what it is like to experience a certain thing.

That's exactly why it's called a spectrum, because they know there are differences, though there are characteristics that are shared. These people didn't just pull all of this out of their collective butts - that's not how this works. There are people (higher functioning, obviously) on the spectrum who work in the field, so it isn't just people who aren't, writing about it.

Yes, while some may look at it all as just data (which is necessary often, as emotions can cloud things), many take both views. My sibling encountered such while fighting tooth and nail, jumping through hoops to get their severely autistic child into programs to benefit them, though there isn't nearly enough funding or such programs. Still, while largely nonverbal and likely always will be, said child has come such a long way, and can even use a bit of sign language. They'll still always need carers, no getting around that - again, it's a different situation.

That said... you flip flop on the "emotional" thing a lot. You say the professionals who work in the field aren't emotional enough, but people looking out for minors are "too emotional" (pssst... it's well-reasoned, not "emotional). Which is it?

That's exactly why it's called a spectrum, because they know there are differences, though there are characteristics that are shared. These people didn't just pull all of this out of their collective butts - that's not how this works. There are people (higher functioning, obviously) on the spectrum who work in the field, so it isn't just people who aren't, writing about it.

Yes, while some may look at it all as just data (which is necessary often, as emotions can cloud things), many take both views. My sibling encountered such while fighting tooth and nail, jumping through hoops to get their severely autistic child into programs to benefit them, though there isn't nearly enough funding or such programs. Still, while largely nonverbal and likely always will be, said child has come such a long way, and can even use a bit of sign language. They'll still always need carers, no getting around that - again, it's a different situation.

That said... you flip flop on the "emotional" thing a lot. You say the professionals who work in the field aren't emotional enough, but people looking out for minors are "too emotional" (pssst... it's well-reasoned, not "emotional). Which is it?

In the end I do not think my stance undermines the protection towards minors per-se I just think that minors that willfully lie and deceive adults should be held to a higher standard or a fairer standard as their adult counterparts that may lack the same understanding and judgment that is offered to minors. The emotion part comes into play because way if we equalize everything despite age even if the adults meets all the sociality norms minus the age the adult is magically meant to have a better understand of the situation because they are older.

As I mentioned many times I am not the brightest bulb in the pack or logically constant. I have already said my stance is emotional just like I think protect the children is an emotional stance. If I look at this from an abstract view as I said have I most likely would disagree with everything I am saying. It is because I have a personal bias I feel this way which makes it frustrating for others I get that. I have tried my best to express my view, it is not so much about the child in the sense that I feel children that do something willfully with the intent to cause harm should be held to the same standards as a adult with the same mental capacity or vise versa. I do not think being a minor in itself should be reason in itself for society to grant protections, if the same protections are not offered to those in similar situations from a contextual point of view.

Sorry hit post limit.

Like the case involving matthew rushin granted he got a pardon but I do not think he should have been charged in the first place. I think I think the laws need to reflect non neurotypical individuals better if.

I am somewhat in agreement on a premise that we should not treat ppl that have ASD as if they're mentally incapable (this depends on them but you get what I mean), but you can't deny many ppl on the spectrum act atypical to common societal norms. In the end as an example the perception of physical boundaries for some on the spectrum is solely confined to family and those that take care if them. Even if they have as you like to put milder cases. This trust can easily be used against them like the case regarding matthew rushin where the cops were able to get him to admit guilt just given the physical evidence. They did not bother to dig deeper and look into the context that lead to the hit and run.

[WoW]

I don't know what's going on in this thread anymore. Can we go back to bashing illegal RPers?

[Awha]

I don't know what's going on in this thread anymore. Can we go back to bashing illegal RPers?

Aw that is boring though. This is interesting to me at the very least.

[Drkdays]

Major segway

/scoot scoot /honk

[WoW]

Aw that is boring though. This is interesting to me at the very least.

You may carry on, then.

[Y2K21]

I came here to feel existential dread and laugh at ERPers, not be educated.