Death unto Dawn page up

[KizuyaKatogami]

It's the same rabbit hole of if death should happen or not too.

The plot hole you're referring to isn't a plot hole because there is a current youthful G'hara on the source when the events on the First transpire. Since soul transference to go back requires the Exarch's blood and a body on the source, the only part of the theory that was unproven was if the Exarch going to his old body would the young soul on source would except the old soul from the First. And it worked. So, without breaking any established rules, G'hara is saved from death.

That’s not the plot hole i’m talking about. The plot hole i’m talking about is when he summons 7 wol’s. It’s established throughout the entire expansion of ShB that the farther Graha is from the tower, the weaker he is. They show us visible proof of this in Kholusia where he almost passes out just from taking out a few sineaters. Yet, after being shot, and dragged the farthest away from the tower he’s ever been, he can somehow accomplish a feat that he failed 5 times to even get correct ONCE. But can somehow replicate it 7 times? Yeah no that’s plot armor.

[Iscah]

That’s not the plot hole i’m talking about. The plot hole i’m talking about is when he summons 7 wol’s. It’s established throughout the entire expansion of ShB that the farther Graha is from the tower, the weaker he is. They show us visible proof of this in Kholusia where he almost passes out just from taking out a few sineaters. Yet, after being shot, and dragged the farthest away from the tower he’s ever been, he can somehow accomplish a feat that he failed 5 times to even get correct ONCE. But can somehow replicate it 7 times? Yeah no that’s plot armor.

What's that got to do with plot armour?

It's an inprobable degree of skill compared to what he's shown before, but the summoning spell itself isn't going to kill him. He's done it before multiple times, and the impact doesn't start to show until Elidibus hijacks his power and performs hundreds of summonings - and even that just increases the extent of crystallisation, which will kill him eventually but not directly.

For all we can know, summoning the WoLs at the climax might have crystallised him further as well, just under his robes where we can't see it.

You can even rationalise the fainting in Kholusia versus his strength at the end by him deliberately restricting how much strength he normally draws from the tower, not wanting to overdraw on it as it's essentially a finite source of power for him, but in that moment he needs and draws as much of it as he can.

[KizuyaKatogami]

What's that got to do with plot armour?

It's an inprobable degree of skill compared to what he's shown before, but the summoning spell itself isn't going to kill him. He's done it before multiple times, and the impact doesn't start to show until Elidibus hijacks his power and performs hundreds of summonings - and even that just increases the extent of crystallisation, which will kill him eventually but not directly.

For all we can know, summoning the WoLs at the climax might have crystallised him further as well, just under his robes where we can't see it.

You can even rationalise the fainting in Kholusia versus his strength at the end by him deliberately restricting how much strength he normally draws from the tower, not wanting to overdraw on it as it's essentially a finite source of power for him, but in that moment he needs and draws as much of it as he can.

Are you being serious right now? Elidibus did hundreds of summonings IN THE TOWER. He did it before multiple times IN THE TOWER. And those weren’t warriors of light from other shards, they were scions from the same shard (Not to mention summoning them wasnt even his intention). He did the 7 wol feat the farthest away from the tower whilst also being away the longest he’s ever been. We don’t even know how long he was away because we pass out after the Innocence scene. They go to extreme lengths to empathize how it affects him and how weak he gets from it. There’s no rationalizing it. You can make your own head canon all you want but the fact of the matter is, with all the plot points they describe and give us it makes 0 sense and it’s purely plot armor.

[Iscah]

They go to extreme lengths to empathize how it affects him and how weak he gets from it.

Emphasise, not empathise.

And weak, yes, but not in a "this will kill me if I draw on my power" way. It wasn't talked up like a big concern.

"Plot armour" only applies for surviving things that should kill you. He had it in other parts of the story, but the summoning is not something I consider to be an example of it. That's about power levels, not mortal peril.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Emphasise, not empathise.

And weak, yes, but not in a "this will kill me if I draw on my power" way. It wasn't talked up like a big concern.

"Plot armour" only applies for surviving things that should kill you. He had it in other parts of the story, but the summoning is not something I consider to be an example of it. That's about power levels, not mortal peril.

I’d disagree with it not being talked up as a big concern. They mention it numerous times as if there’s something that’s going to happen in regards to it. I see it as plot armor because quite frankly yes it should’ve killed him. It would’ve been more believable of him to accomplish a feat like that if it was something like him exerting all his power at once. It wouldn’t be as big of a deal if they didn’t specifically mention it and show it. He even explains how it’s dangerous for him to go as far from the tower as he did when in Kholusia.

[Lord_Umbra]

I'd say my bigger concern with Graha isn't that he lived or could use that magic far away from the tower but that the writers just skipped over the transference like was Graha our Graha a willing participant or did we just shove the Exarch into him cause that's only been shown to be the Exarch in that body now & no sign of our Graha. I for one thought he'd just get Exarchs memories but he seems to just be The Exarch they just gloss over that whole process as if it doesn't matter, I for one think Exarch should've died on top tower & our Graha should just had or been able to cycle through the memories stored on the crystal.

Honestly whole end felt like he was way way to willing to give up the Crystarium & Lyna to go adventuring with the WoL as if he had no attachment to first after a 100 bleeding years there, fact we literally have tell him to have moment with basically his daughter was a weird scene during all that.

[Kesey]

I'd say my bigger concern with Graha isn't that he lived or could use that magic far away from the tower but that the writers just skipped over the transference like was Graha our Graha a willing participant or did we just shove the Exarch into him cause that's only been shown to be the Exarch in that body now & no sign of our Graha. I for one thought he'd just get Exarchs memories but he seems to just be The Exarch they just gloss over that whole process as if it doesn't matter, I for one think Exarch should've died on top tower & our Graha should just had or been able to cycle through the memories stored on the crystal.

Honestly whole end felt like he was way way to willing to give up the Crystarium & Lyna to go adventuring with the WoL as if he had no attachment to first after a 100 bleeding years there, fact we literally have tell him to have moment with basically his daughter was a weird scene during all that.

Don't quote me on this because I'm going from memory, but I believe they explained it as the younger soul had to be willing to except the old soul and its memories. The catch with G'raha was contingent on this working out, as the other scions didn't have this issue.

Honestly, with Lyna and G'raha its going to be awkward because regardless if he dies on the tower or gets soul transferred to the source he is still dead to her physically. But excepting death is difficult for everyone, and weirdly because the WOL can confirm it, its probably less of a problem that he gets to go to source and live the life he dreamed about and as Lyna with that knowledge can more easily move on with her life.

[Kesey]

I’d disagree with it not being talked up as a big concern. They mention it numerous times as if there’s something that’s going to happen in regards to it. I see it as plot armor because quite frankly yes it should’ve killed him. It would’ve been more believable of him to accomplish a feat like that if it was something like him exerting all his power at once. It wouldn’t be as big of a deal if they didn’t specifically mention it and show it. He even explains how it’s dangerous for him to go as far from the tower as he did when in Kholusia.

I think what you have confused is the proximity from the tower and the crystallization.

So the proximity from the tower becomes an issue of power, which is why he can't go to First and drive all the sinner eaters away himself and gets weakened when he uses his powers away from the tower. This is also why the Crystarium is a haven from Sinner Eaters because so close to the tower he has the power to drive them away.

He is dying, albeit slowly, because he used the crystal tower to artificially extend his life so he could be on the First when he summons the WOL. This process is turning him into crystal and will eventually kill him. This was a sacrifice he chose to travel in time and be present for Shadowbringers.

[KageTokage]

The teaser for the 5.5 MSQ mentioning the "servants of chaos amassing at every turn" makes me wonder if the Telophoroi are a more...substantial group then initially expected; perhaps an entire sub-faction of Ascians who were waiting for the unsundered to fall so they could make their move unimpeded.

Though I suppose it's also equally possible that it's just referring to the masses of tempered individuals the towers seem designed to create.

[Vyrerus]

I think the Telophoroi are going to be just that, or close enough to it to be indiscernible from that. It would make for a nice easy game of missing Ascian round-up too.

Big Scions and Leaders at table in Ala Mhigo pic. Hien and Y'shtola are missing. Hmm. I suppose either have their hands full with something. It might just be my grim nature, but it seems like everyone has their eyes tilted towards the table, as if they're discussing something very dire that no one really has the heart to want to talk about. Of course, it's probably just the idle sitting pose for each character. Admiral Merlwyb <3 <3 <3 and Thancred have their arms crossed and are looking straight ahead, after all.