Death unto Dawn page up

[KizuyaKatogami]

So... what I'm seeing in this thread is that a character absolutely has to die to make the story meaningful, but just killing a character wouldn't have any meaning.

Cool. Cool, cool, cool.

Or the protagonists can just have...yknow, consequences? So that the story isn’t completely one-sided like ShB is where none of the protagonists have faced any consequences and quite literally everything has gone their way.

[Kesey]

So... what I'm seeing in this thread is that a character absolutely has to die to make the story meaningful, but just killing a character wouldn't have any meaning.

Cool. Cool, cool, cool.

The point about character deaths have been dancing around this thread so let me try to clarify a few things:

A character death will cut off potential story telling avenues in the future. The author of the story has to decide when that time has come. Also bringing a character back from the death cheapens the death and can be very damaging to the integrity of the story trying to be told.

At the same time, deciding that the story telling avenues around that a character are complete, the character's death will have to move the story forward. Characters cannot be killed without impacting the plot enough to move the story forward. If this isn't met then there is no reason to kill the character.

The sentiment that a death is long over due is a logical fallacy, as both points above need to be met before killing a character. So any 5.5 or 5.55 or Endwalker deaths must be impactful enough to move the plot (and I think we can speculate a few characters who could meet this example) but also would be cut out of the season 2 story which starts in 6.1 (which is too early to call as we don't even have the sliver of a cliffhanger to even judge yet).

Also lets not confuse the "threat of death" which is used to create suspense and also move the plot. A great example of "threat of death" was when the scions bodies were soulless on the source while they were in the first and those bodies could die to kill them. This was to create suspense, because if we think about it hard enough the whole thing falls apart if all the scions die because the main cast is gone.

[Iscah]

Also lets not confuse the "threat of death" which is used to create suspense and also move the plot. A great example of "threat of death" was when the scions bodies were soulless on the source while they were in the first and those bodies could die to kill them. This was to create suspense, because if we think about it hard enough the whole thing falls apart if all the scions die because the main cast is gone.

The whole thing doesn't fall apart, because the Scions weren't called all at once, and those who have been out of their bodies the longest are also the first to show symptoms of the connection fraying. It was unlikely that the whole group would be lost - even that they would die if it happened - but there was still tension as to what might happen and when.

(Though they kind of broke it at the end by having everyone resolved and ready to go and then... "hey let's do a victory lap of Norvrandt!")

[Vyrerus]

We can really highlight things going the protagonist's way, when Varis was informed that the Scions were defenseless, Zenos came calling. Elidibus was literally going to perform a raid on the Rising Stones in Zenos's body and kill'em all.

[KizuyaKatogami]

We can really highlight things going the protagonist's way, when Varis was informed that the Scions were defenseless, Zenos came calling. Elidibus was literally going to perform a raid on the Rising Stones in Zenos's body and kill'em all.

It just makes things so boring/full imo. Like i’m not even really asking for people to die, but just for there to be some long lasting consequences. There’s no reason for there to not be any consequences whatsoever in the expansion advertised to be the grittiest and darkest of them yet, where we face off against the strongest almost godlike foes yet, but it ends up being the safest expansion. Like what sense does that make?

[Kesey]

It just makes things so boring/full imo. Like i’m not even really asking for people to die, but just for there to be some long lasting consequences. There’s no reason for there to not be any consequences whatsoever in the expansion advertised to be the grittiest and darkest of them yet, where we face off against the strongest almost godlike foes yet, but it ends up being the safest expansion. Like what sense does that make?

But to play devil's advocate, let's think of this way: If we don't loose a member of the main cast so they can all face the grittiest and darkest expansion together against a godlike foe, then they all can experience it differently and create many avenues of storytelling instead of pigeon-holing some of the cast and limit their ability to tell the story.

I would argue that keeping them alive will present the best option for the storytelling to not be boring.

[KizuyaKatogami]

But to play devil's advocate, let's think of this way: If we don't loose a member of the main cast so they can all face the grittiest and darkest expansion together against a godlike foe, then they all can experience it differently and create many avenues of storytelling instead of pigeon-holing some of the cast and limit their ability to tell the story.

I would argue that keeping them alive will present the best option for the storytelling to not be boring.

But then where’s the threat? Where’s the suspense of what’s happening to them if we know they’re going to be okay. A story shouldn’t be one-sided, especially because in the case of ShB, in order to keep a certain character alive, they had to rely on half-assed plot armor which completely contradicted the story elements. If it’s something that makes them contradict their own points they wrote in the story, then that should be dealt with. Look at HW. The deaths were impactful to many but it wasn’t forced or anything like that. There were actually consequences for the protags that shaped them. ShB has none of that and it’s no wonder ShB also has less overall character development barring a couple of the scions (Thancred and Alphinaud most notably).

[Vyrerus]

But to play devil's advocate, let's think of this way: If we don't loose a member of the main cast so they can all face the grittiest and darkest expansion together against a godlike foe, then they all can experience it differently and create many avenues of storytelling instead of pigeon-holing some of the cast and limit their ability to tell the story.

I would argue that keeping them alive will present the best option for the storytelling to not be boring.

To play devil's advocate's advocate, what if they kill someone old to make room for someone new, while also presenting us with better fleshed out shows of grieving from those we know will feel it most? No story is really diminished by character death, only by the writer's ability to tell around and beyond it with who remain.

When you write in death, it's to show that there are consequences for the heroes. Lasting ones. You get to write things like trauma, heartbreak, sorrow, recurring dreams, and the like. You also get to show the death, honorable or otherwise. Sudden or sacrifice. With your boots on, or quietly in the middle of the night.

I suspect we're in for a couple, because it will allow them to write the protégé style characters as the mentors come 6.1. If none of the characters we have now ever die, then how are we going to take whatever new threat that comes our way seriously, at all? Because they exposit that we should? Because they blow up towns that we've seen blown up by lesser threats? Make us feel the threat.

[RyuDragnier]

I suspect we're in for a couple, because it will allow them to write the protégé style characters as the mentors come 6.1. If none of the characters we have now ever die, then how are we going to take whatever new threat that comes our way seriously, at all? Because they exposit that we should? Because they blow up towns that we've seen blown up by lesser threats? Make us feel the threat.

The characters don't have to die. Death is one predictable avenue. There are plenty of ways to write characters off without it.

Example, look at Thancred. He lost his aether controlling abilities. Now what happens if he loses a leg or ends up badly hurt in a fight that leaves him near crippled and almost dead? He's effectively written out of the story. He can no longer spy for us, he can no longer fight by our side. His entire role as a Scion is no longer possible, and he has to leave the main story and be replaced by another.

Another example, Y'shtola and Urianger. They're our resident expert mages and lore experts. Imagine if you will that the actions occurring in EW effect the First and we need somebody there who can hold the aether together, and whichever goes would be able to make the trip body and all, but wouldn't return? One of them would be removed from the main squad permanently without death.

We don't need there to be death to remove characters, we have other avenues to create believable circumstances that rob us of our team members permanently and make it threatening. If any Scion were to be removed from the equation permanently in any of these circumstances, we've felt the threat, they're not coming back, they can't help us anymore. I wouldn't be surprised if the last dungeon of EW has only the Trusts of G'raha, Alphinaud, Alisaie, and Estinien left due to the other members getting permanently removed due to circumstances, with G'raha being permanently removed after the final dungeon is complete. Leaving us with the only members able to continue into 6.1 being Alphinaud and Alisaie, and maybe Estinien if he officially joins the Scions.

[Mahoukenshi]

If none of the characters we have now ever die, then how are we going to take whatever new threat that comes our way seriously, at all? Because they exposit that we should? Because they blow up towns that we've seen blown up by lesser threats? Make us feel the threat.

Imo, that's not the problem of characters dying or surviving, but rather the age old problem of ever stronger escalating threats (i. e. threats with a stronger and stronger "power level"). We'll have been squashing world-ending foes left and right, esp. at the end of EW. So the EW post-game needs to make a new start with new dangers that are somehow equally (or more) threatening than a re-enactment of the literal Final Days if the plot isn't depowering us somehow. Technically, every regular dungeon visit afterwards shouldn't be threatening at all (ignoring from a player pov of "everything is faceroll-easy lolz"), unless the Final Days will uncover some age-old sealed dungeons with somehow more threatening stuff in it.