Tired of Zenos (spoilers)

[Burningskull]

I didn't like Zenos in Stormblood. Him refusing to kill you cause you bore him, 1st time, then to see if you become stronger, 2nd time, only to have you beat him the 3rd time just felt... bad. However now that we know he has always had dreams of the end of days, and that his resonance wont really let him die, he "might" be more interesting in Endwalker. I do think it's time for a villain that is just evil because they want to be. If every villain was relatable or understandable then the term evil starts to have no meaning.

[MarsAstro]

I feel like I need to replay the story through NG+, because a lot of this Elidibus talk just doesn't connect with me. I guess time has just made me forget about the character people are claiming were forgotten about in 5.3 or something, I'll give it a new shot.

[Bright-Flower]

Wait is Elidibus supposed to be sealed? I thought we just used the tower as a stand in for white auracite to kill him like we did other ascians previously.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Wait is Elidibus supposed to be sealed? I thought we just used the tower as a stand in for white auracite to kill him like we did other ascians previously.

Yep he’s sealed. Graha even says as much. He used the tower to seal him away inside of it to power it.

[Jojoya]

Wait is Elidibus supposed to be sealed? I thought we just used the tower as a stand in for white auracite to kill him like we did other ascians previously.

But we would shatter that white auracite once they were trapped inside to actually kill them.

We didn't (and probably can't) shatter the Tower.

[CKNovel]

But we would shatter that white auracite once they were trapped inside to actually kill them.
We didn't (and probably can't) shatter the Tower.

Doubt so, at most I'd say they could be freed.
Lahabrea was pokeball'd into one of the eye of Niddhog. Yet they were drained of their aether to summon Shinryu and even destroyed by Estinien at the end of SB.
However he apparently survived and will be an important element in the next raid tier, Pandemonium.

I'm still confused about Elidibus, he was supposed to be Zodiark's core but managed to split himself from it and he wasn't quite complete? Is there a remaining of Elidibus within Zodiark, how Zodiark was (and if it was) affected by the split.

[KizuyaKatogami]

Doubt so, at most I'd say they could be freed.
Lahabrea was pokeball'd into one of the eye of Niddhog. Yet they were drained of their aether to summon Shinryu and even destroyed by Estinien at the end of SB.
However he apparently survived and will be an important element in the next raid tier, Pandemonium.

I'm still confused about Elidibus, he was supposed to be Zodiark's core but managed to split himself from it and he wasn't quite complete? Is there a remaining of Elidibus within Zodiark, how Zodiark was (and if it was) affected by the split.

To be fair, for the Lahabrea case for all we know it could just be memories of him or something, i expect a twist because of the fact they revealed him so early. Elidibus was Zodiark’s heart, however he left it to help soothe the masses. There shouldn’t be a piece of Elidibus remaining in Zodiark considering he completely left it himself as far as we know. The only mystery is how the 3 escaped the sundering but i suspect we’ll find that out in 6.0.

[Bright-Flower]

I had a feeling for a while they were going to bring Lahabrea back in some capacity. It felt weird to me that 5.0 would specify him as one of the three Unsundered, and then name drop him a few times, if that wasn't the case. There wasn't really any reason he needed to be unsundered retroactively for his role in 2.0. So will be interesting to see what they have planned for Pandaemonium with him.

I think he also had a chat with Elidibus in one of the 2. X cutscenes that implied Lahabrea had his own goals and not just following the will of Zodiark? Him saying something about things going along to his will and Elidibus correcting him to 'Zodiark's will' or something like that?

[Lauront]

Wait is Elidibus supposed to be sealed? I thought we just used the tower as a stand in for white auracite to kill him like we did other ascians previously.

Technically, they don't die. They're expelled into the Aetherial Sea. It's unclear in the English version, because it uses wording to the effect of "consigned to oblivion", but for comparison, the French version says this:

[20:48] Urianger : Une fois privée de son corps, une âme ascienne pourrait être enfermée dans une prison d'éther... Une lame éthérée serait alors en mesure de la briser, et l'Ascien retournerait ainsi vers la mer des étoiles.
= “Once deprived of their body, an ascian soul could be locked in an aether prison... An ethereal blade would then be able to break it, and the Ascian would thus return to the sea of stars.”

I believe this is where the interpretation that souls are utterly indestructible has stemmed from.

Doubt so, at most I'd say they could be freed.
Lahabrea was pokeball'd into one of the eye of Niddhog. Yet they were drained of their aether to summon Shinryu and even destroyed by Estinien at the end of SB.
However he apparently survived and will be an important element in the next raid tier, Pandemonium.

I'm still confused about Elidibus, he was supposed to be Zodiark's core but managed to split himself from it and he wasn't quite complete? Is there a remaining of Elidibus within Zodiark, how Zodiark was (and if it was) affected by the split.

It's a question I've been wondering about, but I think he's basically an amalgamated entity. At its core, the soul is there and wasn't in the driving seat of Zodiark at that point. Primals technically don't need anyone in them to control them, but there was probably a specific reason as to why they created Zodiark and Hydaelyn to accommodate a heart. I believe this is also why Zenos could control and "slot" into Shinryu - there is simply that gap in them by design. The way I read it, the Primal's overarching imperative imprinted upon him but he was still technically himself as a person. He seems to have inherited some Primal traits, like his power scaling based on prayer.

I had a feeling for a while they were going to bring Lahabrea back in some capacity. It felt weird to me that 5.0 would specify him as one of the three Unsundered, and then name drop him a few times, if that wasn't the case. There wasn't really any reason he needed to be unsundered retroactively for his role in 2.0. So will be interesting to see what they have planned for Pandaemonium with him.

I think he also had a chat with Elidibus in one of the 2. X cutscenes that implied Lahabrea had his own goals and not just following the will of Zodiark? Him saying something about things going along to his will and Elidibus correcting him to 'Zodiark's will' or something like that?

They'd struggle to retcon that, because the lorebook had confirmed it as well, as did Gaius when he reveals himself at Seiryu's Wall.

Also that dialogue varies by language. Lahabrea had his own plan, but the idea is Elidibus was reminding him of the big picture which it served. The English one makes it seem like he's getting carried away but in the French version Elidibus praises him for the plan but reminds him of their larger goal.

I didn't like Zenos in Stormblood. Him refusing to kill you cause you bore him, 1st time, then to see if you become stronger, 2nd time, only to have you beat him the 3rd time just felt... bad. However now that we know he has always had dreams of the end of days, and that his resonance wont really let him die, he "might" be more interesting in Endwalker. I do think it's time for a villain that is just evil because they want to be. If every villain was relatable or understandable then the term evil starts to have no meaning.

Yes and no. Yoshi has already positioned him in the role of a villain/antagonist without sympathetic motives, so I think it'd be odd to backtrack on that, especially with Fandaniel now around. At the same time, few people take issue with the lack of a character with no underlying motive. It's more the execution which people tend to criticise with Zenos.

On the whole question of "good/evil", here's Yoshi's perspective:

Q: With each new expansion new themes are introduced and are focused on. How does the team decide on which themes to focus on with each new expansion?

Naoki Yoshida: The major themes for the expansion would be first conveyed from me as the game’s director to the development team. Although it is somewhat difficult to describe my personal decision-making process it could be summarised as [requiring a sense of] surprise and fun. This contains a dual meaning in that I assess whether as developers ourselves we would encounter surprises while enjoying the production process, at the same time as considering whether the story of the expansion would be exciting and fun for the players. In the last expansion Shadowbringers, I had thought that players must have grown tired of being referred to as a Warrior of Light. I also came up with the idea of reversing the conventional notion of light equating to justice or something holy and darkness equating to evil or something bad to generate a sense of surprise.

The current state of global affairs is incredibly complex and simple two-dimensional theories of good/bad from ancient times can no longer quantify this world we live in. As such, a large factor [that contributed to the selection of these themes] is that I thought I could cultivate new values and a new sense of realisation within myself by changing perspective and carefully considering the other party’s arguments in regard to a given event. Half of the time these things are born from one’s intuition and flashes of inspiration. I guessed as much but it really is hard to explain. (laughs)

I tend to agree and I rarely like how the terms are used in fantasy settings.

[Bright-Flower]

The lore books are written in universe and can have incorrect information without being a full on retcon, but we'll see what the raid does.