The unrewarding state of physical ranged

[ssunny2008]

snip.

I just can repeat it again and again. Phys. range have a much easier life in any content and you can´t ignore that fact. You´ll never get interupt by anything that´s happening in the game, unless you missplay by yourself.

First... i doesn´t mean that DPS shouldn´t be a thing. But everyone but some hardcore players don´t come up like "ih bard, please don´t unless you give us 1%!". I´ve played with double phys. range or even double classes and we finished bossfights in random parties. It doesn´t matter that much. Either the boss is dead or not.

I could take your example and turn it the other way too. At the moment phys. range will be nearly even to melees or caster, you´ll see them everywhere and probably one 2 phys. range parties with melee + caster for that 1% buff. Just because it´s easier to play. The chances to beat the boss will significantly increase, just because the chance to die, to do a mistake, to get interupted, whatever is way lower on phys. range chars and the player.
Next to those facts, which are probably SE thoughts behind it, they follow a clear route how a raid party should looks like. You see it at the content and the stuff which is going to happen. 2 tanks + 2 melee + 1 phys. + 1 caster + 1 pure and 1 shield heal.

And you say it in the end again. "If a Melee/Caster can´t adapt, it´s on them.". And yes, that´s stuff SE is keeping in mind and it´s a minority of players who can do this pretty well. Here again, it´s way easier to learn the phys. range rotation and just play it down without any real stuff you´ve to adjust too. That´s why classes who has a "harder life" from beginning will do more damage if they´re played well.

I understand your point and i would be with you if the gap would be THAT issue, but it isn´t at the moment. 1-2k which is more player based and just a real thing when you look at the top players is still "ok". A bigger gap would be an issue or the moment when the range damage is not enough to beat the content. Imagine range get their 2-3k dps buff, so the content will adjusted to it and if a melee / caster isn´t able to play it perfectly down, you´ll fail. It just doesn´t make sense.

Overall more support and deeper game design is another thing. It´s definately welcome and if ranges finally have something real to care about, i wouldn´t mind if they do similar damage as melees. Sry to say that, but imo this is just an elitist fflogs farming issue to me than anything else. Players would´n´t even get the difference without it and specialized farming groups with RNG luck, uptime strats, whatever. But this is not part of the game and nothing SE cares about. The game is obviously build for midcore players / casuals and it´s more like SE expect players to do mistakes, to miss the uptime, whatever.
In kind of the classes, i would even say that the internal testers of SE are double-lefthanded anyway. Maybe they do even expect that every player plays with the given equipment instead of building on BIS gear, which could last in even damage numbers in their internal calculation. Who knows....

Try out monk if you want. It got dumb´d down, but the pressure on you in kind of rotation, positionals, adaption and hurry buttonsmash is still a thing to do good damage. I´m pretty sure the most won´t get decent dps numbers.

[CKNovel]

I could take your example and turn it the other way too. At the moment phys. range will be nearly even to melees or caster, you´ll see them everywhere and probably one 2 phys. range parties with melee + caster for that 1% buff.

"No one care except the metaslaves" you said yourself, yet "meta" is one of your key argument.
We had this situation before where BRD and MCH were performing way too well during HW.
Let's look at the number of parses still existing on FFLogs, shall we?

MCH:9.7k
SMN:8.5k
BRD:11.8k
BLM:8.8k

Double ranged comp was popular but it wasn't "everywhere".

Remind yourself that BLM was actually perfoming worse than SMN. "Ranged Meta" did happen, but aren't only metaslaves supposed to enjoy? Isn't there 2 ranged composition right now? That's another argument that falls apart.
The remaining parses are still quite balanced despite a "Ranged meta". Your statement is then wrong. Again, for the "I don't know"-th time. People play what they want to play, they don't play based on the performance of the job.
This is not a theory, that's fact, a scenario that actually happened. That's solid evidence you can't deny.

On the otherside of the spectrum, MCH was performing well during SB.
But due to its horrible gameplay, it was one of the least player job, popularity is tied to gameplay not damage!
You can see the same happening right now. BLM is the best performing job and the one feeling the most complete, yet it's among the least popular due to its niche gameplay!

Let's now focus on "But melee hard D:":
-I actually play Samurai/DRG/Tank and didn't had to do much effort to feel more useful. Feeling has been shared by other ranged. I'm not a big guy, they're not either, I'm a scrub that just wants to play every battle content.
-E7S and E11S, seems you keep forgetting fight that are way too friendly to melee but they aren't nerfed for it. But the opposite is true for ranged on any content. That's a double standard.
-Positionnals and missed uptime don't make up for the current gap. Have you actually tried to fail as many positionnals as you can on multiple runs and see the difference? I believe on 5.0 DRG, it was around 500dps at the beginning of the expansion.
-This is the first expansion where Ranged are at the bottom. Melee were much harder to play before

Last:
God please STOP making SUCH a focus on DPS, about mobility and how your melee job is infinitely harder. Weren't you the one saying "Cut ACT."?
You keep spitting the same argument and we have facts, scenarios that proves the opposite yet you remain adamant that the 6 GCDs you lost is the perfect argument.
The point of this topic was mainly to argue about the unrewarding feeling. No DPS, no Support, boring Gameplay and other role are crying that the role is easy to play and should stay in this bad state even when just asking for more support.
May I have my favorite job to be engaging and amusing? Mobility feels like a curse in this expansion, not some godlike gift you somehow picture.

[ssunny2008]

snip

I don´t know what you want. I´ve said more than one time that i would be fine with more support abilities or deeper gameplay, even better mechanics where the mobility of ranges is going to shine / which aren´t so easy to play. Someone else came up with parsing percentages and ranks, i answered, you answered and here we are. If you want to talk about such stuff, maybe bring some ideas up, instead of replying like "we´re only here for the 1%, mobility isn´t worth anything, etc.?!"

That those "metaslaves" exist is real, especially in the upper 10% of the players who plays more endgame content than anything else. You answered it by yourself, "Double range was popular". Do you see them permanently right now? I don´t on my datacenter and the amount of blackmages / double-caster groups definately increased due to its preference on the current content.
And for any scenario you come up with, there is the opposite scenario too. It´s not like SE is ignoring phys. range on purpose or whatever. They obviously have a plan when they dumb down one class after the other and hey... bard got that 10 potency buff and now it seems to fit the numbers SE wanted to get. Otherwise we would´ve seen more buffs/nerfs i guess.

And yes, i know about those melee friendly bosses. 2/3 from 12? And how many are caster friendly? 6,7,8, maybe even 10? And phys. range friendly? 12/12?

Tbh, if it wouldn´t be about DPS in the first case, you wouldn´t open that big barrel about it. And you still missing a clear fact, you are you, i´m who i´m. It might be easy for us to play any class, to adjust to any content, whatever, but this is not a thing for the majority.

EDIT: And please don´t come with "but you´ve said this or that about DPS,..." now. I´ve named it once, followed by a novel about the lack of class design overall and primitive boss mechanics in my first post. That SE dumbs down everything and that any boss follows a strict design pattern, no matter the poor spread/stack RNG mechanics, is the REAL ISSUE behind boring gameplay and the lack of needed raid support. Point and click seems to be SE´s goal... i can´t wait that 19 classes will only have 3 buttons left and the bossfights will take no longer than 1 minute with AOE -> tankbuster -> RNG stack/spread -> GG.

[Myon88]

I don't think machinist as a job ever recovered from the gigantic L that was getting flamethrower as a skill in Stormblood, it epitomized everything wrong about that rework. On one hand you had their beautiful Heavensward iteration that had many moving parts and rewarded skillful play, and then you had... whatever happened to them in SB being made to repeat a fully scripted 60s rotation over and over with a poorly implemented heat mechanic.

Most jobs' 60/70/80 linchpin skills end up being cornerstones of their rotations like deathflare and demi summons, enochian, and so on. So it's a testament to how much of a lemon flamethrower is that all it can do is sit there being aoe fodder now. I'm surprised they haven't removed the skill outright from the job, someone must be really sore about all the money they spent to mocap and rig that bespoke animation.

[Adventica6]

I think the job is great and it's the only job I play, every job has something someone will complain about.. flamethrower? who cares, don't use it then, I don't.

Rather than complaining why not do something else with your life.

Mch is fine, so is Dnc.

[VentVanitas]

I think the job is great and it's the only job I play, every job has something someone will complain about.. flamethrower? who cares, don't use it then, I don't.

Rather than complaining why not do something else with your life.

Mch is fine, so is Dnc.

Damn, flawless reasoning. You heard it here first folks. Don't like Hypercharge and how it gates skill because of ping? Just don't use it. Don't like Wildfire being a useless 2 minute CD? Just don't use it. Surely, there is no long term problem with stockpiling situational and unintuitive skills and there definitely isn't another job that is the result of SE ignoring these exact issues. insert obligatory monk comment here

I don't know if this came across your mind, but just because you enjoy something that doesn't mean other people do as well. These very forums were made specifically for threads like these so why are you wasting your time making a post like this? None of the jobs in this game are perfect and that's why people invest the time discussing a part of the game they want to enjoy. It is perfectly fine if you like MCH as it is now, but going on to mock people for wanting it to improve is backwards thinking.

[Myon88]

I think the job is great and it's the only job I play

My condolences.

Edit: No, in retrospect I'm actually envious there are people whose machinist experiences aren't sullied by memories of Heavensward. For many people who played it then, it's been all downhill from there. SE's anything but stingy when it comes to the job too, summoners have been begging for egi glamours for years, meanwhile here's machinist getting a full rework and shiny new animations two expansions in a row.

[CKNovel]

If you want to talk about such stuff, maybe bring some ideas up, instead of replying like "we´re only here for the 1%, mobility isn´t worth anything, etc.?!"

We already did.

We proposed range limitation, a new form of casting, new support role action that would actually improve the party mobility, asked for more situationnal mitigation.
But that's SQEX decision and I'll have to trust them. If they fail to deliver, no biggies, I'll wait for another 2 years for a good MCH iteration on all point.
Since SQEX have no ideas where the BRD can go, I fear even more for them and hope the game designer will end up with genius ideas.
And that's only personnal, but I'd like DNC to be less relying on others.

That those "metaslaves" exist is real, especially in the upper 10% of the players who plays more endgame content than anything else.

Alright let's be really picky and pick World first, alright? There was one BRD in every world first this expansion despite BRD being the ranged getting the short end of the stick.
I haven't checked every world second/third, but BRD was quite dominant. And it's world first, so it should be the upper 10% (Even 10%, it's far from "everywhere"...). Do you need more?

UCOB first actually had a DRK. Do you know the reason behind choosing a DRK in SB, the worst tanks? When asked, the player answered:
"I just like the job."
People play what they want to play. Even the upper end. Those metaslaves exist, but not where you imagine and not as present in the game.
It's all there, all solid and facts just accept it and move on.

As for melee uptime, won't repeat myself in detail again. Way too many bosses with permanent melee uptime, missing all positionnals will not put you behind a ranged.

[EdwinLi]

I think the issue with Range Physical DPS Jobs is that they don't really know what to do with them due to being a job designed for high mobilty and constant attacking with less down time.

Bosses these days are being designed more to mess up player's rotations by either adding a lot of melee AoE attacks around the boss or in specific angles towards messing with Melee DPS and forcing them to stop attacking for a small amount of time

or

using large amount of range DPS to interrupt casters ability to cast since they have to move when their instant cast buffs are down.

Range Physical DPS can ignore most of these things.

This is where I think the developers losses their plans on what they want the Range Physical DPS to be.

Give them DPS equal or greater to that of melee and casters, people will complain these jobs are too easy to play and makes Melee and Casters a waste since they can ignore most of the mechanics designed to stop Melee and Caster jobs attacks.

Give them higher DPS but remove mobility in return makes people complain they wanted to perform the same DPS as Melee and Casters with high mobility.

Give them more support skills that buff damage of the entire party or make enemies/bosses take more damage by everyone but don't improve their own DPS to be equal to Melee and Casters then people start complaining Range Physical DPS is only good in parties because their DPS are still lower than everyone else.

It is a constant cycle of complaints with no real satisfaction becuase the ideal DPS is one that is highly mobile, High DPS, and zero down time with constantly attacking the enemy.

[Adventica6]

You know you're part of a vocal minority when there are only 5 of you with tears in your eyes.