8 man endgame content should go back to the 2.x method (no baby mode) Hear me out...

[LisSquid]

Now you're imbalancing Savage and Normal by letting Savage have extra rewards *and* bypass the normal story progression. One equalizer in this game is we all have to take the same path if we want something. What you're proposing still sounds like wanting special treatment because you don't want to do the regular path, only your own special version.

How? Like it's been said the number of people in savage is small. Why do you need savage gear if you're not doing savage? If you just want the story then normal is there. It's allowing people the choice on how they want to engage with the story which is important. You will lose nothing, and raiders will get to engage with it in a pace they want.

Like it or not, those people exist and to put your foot down over something as silly as a different path through the msq is, dare I say it, selfish

[TaleraRistain]

How? Like it's been said the number of people in savage is small. Why do you need savage gear if you're not doing savage? If you just want the story then normal is there. It's allowing people the choice on how they want to engage with the story which is important. You will lose nothing, and raiders will get to engage with it in a pace they want.

Like it or not, those people exist and to put your foot down over something as silly as a different path through the msq is, dare I say it, selfish

Everyone has to unlock 8 man story in Normal mode. There's no special treatment. Everyone follows the same process. It doesn't matter what playstyle you normally have. The Normal mode raids requirements are universal. Allowing only Savage raiders an alternate path to that process is special treatment to a certain playstyle. Predominantly solo players don't get a solo instance, or groups don't get a 4 man instance. Everyone has to do the normal 8 man raid. So either they make it possible for all playstyles to bypass the regular requirements or they keep them in place for everyone.

[LisSquid]

You forget that solo players get solo options for most things, now. It's also an mmo. Playing with others is in the genre. You seem more bent out of shape because you feel like raiders somehow get something extra, and it's true! It's because raiders coordinate times and strategies to overcome challenging content. Unlocking the story via savage does not remove your progression through normal. It does not remove your normal loot. You'll never see these people because they will be in savage

[TaleraRistain]

You forget that solo players get solo options for most things, now. It's also an mmo. Playing with others is in the genre. You seem more bent out of shape because you feel like raiders somehow get something extra, and it's true! It's because raiders coordinate times and strategies to overcome challenging content. Unlocking the story via savage does not remove your progression through normal. It does not remove your normal loot. You'll never see these people because they will be in savage

Raiders *already* get something extra in exclusive phases, exclusive bosses, exclusive song drops, exclusive mounts, and exclusive gear. It's not going to kill them to do Normal mode like everyone else for the story. Soloers make the choice to join with 7 others in a raid to see the story. Groupers join 4 more people in a raid to see the story. Savage raiders have to put up with being bored to see the story. Everyone gives up something from their normal playstyle to gain something else. It's equally balanced.

[MilkieTea]

Now you're imbalancing Savage and Normal by letting Savage have extra rewards *and* bypass the normal story progression. One equalizer in this game is we all have to take the same path if we want something. What you're proposing still sounds like wanting special treatment because you don't want to do the regular path, only your own special version.

How? They still would progress the exact same, just with savage content instead. The option to only do savage content would be there for those who only want to do savage vers of normal content - it's harder, therefore OBVIOUSLY they'd get savage gear, just like they do now? Only difference would be that they progress through the story with savage content vs normal content.

Perhaps they could unlock normal content just like how normal-content players unlock savage content, or a similar way? Allowing raiders the option to just do raids for their content literally screws no one over, just provides the OPTION to go at whichever pace suits you.

Edit: also they wouldn't be bypassing normal story progression - just progressing with different difficulty. Same way how solo instances allow you to progress through the instance with a "Very Easy" mode.

[LisSquid]

Savage raiders have to put up with being bored to see the story.

So you agree that for some people having no other option than to see the story in normal isn't rewarding?

They added trusts for the solo player, they can let raiders to savage for the story if they wanted to.

[Undeadfire]

I don't think it's a case of watching the story, we just skip it rushing the normal floors down and get straight into Savage around 30+ mins. If your group is aiming Week 1, don't have time for it.

[Kamatsu]

It's also an mmo. Playing with others is in the genre.

I was wondering just how long it would be for this tired old nonsense argument to surface. I'm actually surprised it took this long. Yes, XIV is a MMO - Massive (yes) Multiplayer (yes) Online (yes) RPG (yes) - It's not a MMPWOMORPG (Massive Must Play With Others Multiplayer Online RPG) game. Casuals, solo players, crafter's, etc interact with players each and everyday - they chat in cities, they buy/sell off the MB, they craft things for ppl, they do FATES's with other ppl.

Go back to what I said about WoW - the most well known and famous "MMO" - the vast majority of it's players played SOLO. The vast majority were ppl who quested, crafted, gathered, chatted in cities, played on the MB, etc while SOLO. Yes there were still plenty who grouped with friends/Guildies for dungeons, some questing, role-playing, etc... but the vast majority of ppl played solo.

You know why WoW was so successful? It's because it combined a known lore franchise, was a continuation of a known game franchise, came from a known & respected company (at the time), and was the 1st major accessible MMO where people did NOT have to group up, they could experience 90% of the whole game without being forced to group up. There is a reason why Hunter's were the highest populated class in WoW for many, many years - this was because it was the simplest class to play, and the easiest class to do stuff solo with... you had a pet to tank mobs, you could keep the pet heal.ed easy enough with Mend Pet, and you could frankly auto-attack and kill mobs.
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Yes I realize/know that ppl are forced into groups throughout XIV to progress the MSQ, as well as to experience side-content. However the fact is the base level of difficulty that they are required to go through for this content is typically fairly easy (yes, there are exceptions). I mean really, it should take an experienced group of raiders all of what... an hour max to blitze through all the normal raids? Oh noes... you have to deal with a *yawn* 1 hour or so. Pffft.

I'm sure I'll get the "You're not reading my post" response. *shrugs* I'm just tired of seeing the nonsense "It's an MMO" rubbish pulled out by ppl pushing for things like harder normal, harder MSQ, locking lore & story behind savage raid content, etc. Cuz yes, it happens just about every time this type of push happens... someone brings out the "It's an MMO, ppl should be interacting and solo is bad / too easy / too frequent / etc!" type of comment.

[LisSquid]

You know why WoW was so successful? It's because it combined a known lore franchise, was a continuation of a known game franchise, came from a known & respected company (at the time), and was the 1st major accessible MMO where people did NOT have to group up, they could experience 90% of the whole game without being forced to group up. There is a reason why Hunter's were the highest populated class in WoW for many, many years - this was because it was the simplest class to play, and the easiest class to do stuff solo with... you had a pet to tank mobs, you could keep the pet heal.ed easy enough with Mend Pet, and you could frankly auto-attack and kill mobs.
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Wow those are so rose tinted glasses. Need I link the thousands of old "why vanilla was great" threads saying so because it encouraged community through making the solo experience difficult? The class quests (warlock comes to mind) that needed a full party to take you through?

That aside: they added trusts so that solo players do not need to group. Perhaps one day they will add it to trials and older content.

Perhaps they will let raiders skip normal and go straight to Savage like every other game. Its all about choices and preference. I don't use trusts unless I'm doing laundry and want to farm pets and glamour. You can run all the dungeons with trusts exclusively and that means nothing to me.

I humor you and say, yes, you are still not reading my posts. Who knew wanting alternative options for different people meant I wanted to lock the story away only for me?

Edit: also while it is hard to determine how many people cleared content on WoW before AoTC, you can tell that participation isn't small enough to even say that solo players dominate the game. You can even see key clears, which are arguably more difficult on higher tiers, have more participation than raiding. Definitely not a "solo" experience.

[Floortank]

I am of the personal belief that if we corralled people into tough content, it would be ROUGH for a while. I mean, really rough. People can't wrap their heads about meteors in CT.. However, I think it would improve overall player skill by saying "This is the content. This is what we expect from you, and we expect you to do it."

You have no idea what you're talking about.

Square Enix already tried that in Final Fantasy XI, which was notoriously difficult. The end result is that within nine months of launch, 90% of the people on my friend list had quit the game, and many, many more were in the beta for World of Warcraft and evangelizing to everyone who would listen about how they should quit FFXI and try this new, up-and-coming MMO.

FFXI continued to thrive despite the birth of WOW, but it lost massive numbers of people, because as it turns out, if you make the player skill bar too high to jump, people will quit the game rather than improve their skills in order to jump it. They will quit en masse, such that, the few people who played FFXI from beginning and over some long period of time thereafter, look at each other with a kind of astonishment.