Healer Unhappiness exists on the Jap Healing Forums as well.

[Limonia]

Because WHM already has too many oGCDs compared to actual weaving opportunities, adding even more isn't gonna magically fix that.

This wouldn't be a problem if they rework WHMs DPS options. If they either give it the shorter cast time like Malefic, or give it some kind of combo which includes instant casts (or something else than combos) we could easily weave lily heals.

Right now it would be a really bad idea to make them oGCD, because we would lose movement/weaving tools. If those movement/weaving tools were on DPS instead of heals though it would be possible. It would be an easy fix to make it at least a little more engaging to play.

[GrimGale]

Because WHM already has too many oGCDs compared to actual weaving opportunities, adding even more isn't gonna magically fix that.



Except that this is one weakness that needs to be adjusted if WHM is supposed to be the "BLM of healers".
It's dps needs to be powerful enough to make up for the times where it has to stop dpsing to actually heal. Currently WHM's dps flatlines if it wants to make full use of it's powerful healing kit, whereas AST contributes rDPS on par, if not superior, to WHM's personal DPS with no cost to it's healing output.

So WHM needs ways to continue healing while dealing damage. And requires more weaving opportunities. Seems like these two concepts could solve each other without relying on utility whatsoever.

[Veis_Alveare]

So WHM needs ways to continue healing while dealing damage. And requires more weaving opportunities. Seems like these two concepts could solve each other without relying on utility whatsoever.

Since you seem so opposed to WHM getting any kind of rDPS utility I'd then ask how you'd prefer their dps be balanced against AST and SCH?

Should a top end WHM contribute as much dps as a SCH/AST in a group playing more or less perfectly? Or should WHM be capping out below what SCH or AST can bring? Because most SCHs I see around here seem to think that WHM not having utility also means that their utility via Chain should see them contributing more than a WHM in a higher end scenario.

I hope this makes it clear why this mentality is inherently impossible to adhere to if your goal is actual healer contribution balance.

[Absurdity]

So WHM needs ways to continue healing while dealing damage. And requires more weaving opportunities. Seems like these two concepts could solve each other without relying on utility whatsoever.

I never claimed that utility was needed. WHM simply needs to bring strong enough personal healing and dps to a team to make up for the utility that other healers have, while it has some strong personal dps right now it is also still extremely clunky to play at the higher end.

Since you seem so opposed to WHM getting any kind of rDPS utility I'd then ask how you'd prefer their dps be balanced against AST and SCH?

Should a top end WHM contribute as much dps as a SCH/AST in a group playing more or less perfectly? Or should WHM be capping out below what SCH or AST can bring? Because most SCHs I see around here seem to think that WHM not having utility also means that their utility via Chain should see them contributing more than a WHM in a higher end scenario.

I hope this makes it clear why this mentality is inherently impossible to adhere to if your goal is actual healer contribution balance.

Just for pressing chain every 2 minutes? No. If we look at AST however it should absolutely be able to achieve higher rDPS contribution than a WHM in a perfectly optimized team. Now many people may disagree but I am of the opinion that if a job is harder to play, or in this case relies entirely on the party's performance, then it should also be able to perform better at the top end. Sure, in theory AST has the highest potential rDPS out of all the healers but how often does that actually happen? Certainly not in your average savage party and most certainly not in party finder.


Chasing perfect balance between the jobs in any given role is not only a futile endeavor but also an undesirable one. There will always be a meta and there will always be jobs that are not included in said meta, trying to "fix" this will only lead to every job essentially being the same. We've already seen the result of this overbalancing, tanks and healers are more homogenized than ever before and to no one's surprise there is still a meta comp for speedrunning or parse runs.

[Semirhage]

Just for pressing chain every 2 minutes? No. If we look at AST however it should absolutely be able to achieve higher rDPS contribution than a WHM in a perfectly optimized team. Now many people may disagree but I am of the opinion that if a job is harder to play, or in this case relies entirely on the party's performance, then it should also be able to perform better at the top end. Sure, in theory AST has the highest potential rDPS out of all the healers but how often does that actually happen? Certainly not in your average savage party and most certainly not in party finder.


Chasing perfect balance between the jobs in any given role is not only a futile endeavor but also an undesirable one. There will always be a meta and there will always be jobs that are not included in said meta, trying to "fix" this will only lead to every job essentially being the same. We've already seen the result of this overbalancing, tanks and healers are more homogenized than ever before and to no one's surprise there is still a meta comp for speedrunning or parse runs.

Ah, this opinion isn't so much "WHM should be the BLM of healers" as it is "WHM should be the baby healer". Less complex, lower contribution, just flat-out brings less to the table and WHM mains should suck it up. BLM does more damage than the utility mages, not less.

[glamazon]

Those people are wrong. If ast and SCH are bringing buffs and debuffs that increase damage to the enemy then that same damage potential should be an option for whm in their kit as direct damage. High personal damage in exchange for no buffs or debuffs

[glamazon]

Ah, this opinion isn't so much "WHM should be the BLM of healers" as it is "WHM should be the baby healer". Less complex, lower contribution, just flat-out brings less to the table and WHM mains should suck it up. BLM does more damage than the utility mages, not less.

This is solved by giving whm damage abilities that will make her personal dps equal to what a ast or SCH brings w their abilities.

Then all three are equal but accomplish it in different ways which is what is important because if they are not different then just have one healer. Just have one tank. Just have one of everything. This is why people are so vocal about class identity because no one wants one of each class.

[Veis_Alveare]

I am of the opinion that if a job is harder to play, or in this case relies entirely on the party's performance, then it should also be able to perform better at the top end. Sure, in theory AST has the highest potential rDPS out of all the healers but how often does that actually happen? Certainly not in your average savage party and most certainly not in party finder.

There will always be a meta and there will always be jobs that are not included in said meta, trying to "fix" this will only lead to every job essentially being the same. We've already seen the result of this overbalancing, tanks and healers are more homogenized than ever before and to no one's surprise there is still a meta comp for speedrunning or parse runs.

The issue here is that when you combine these two statements together you get a perpetual meta that will never and (if we take those statements to be facts) should never change.

Ignoring the fact that I find AST to be the easier healer to play (CPM does not equal complexity, until you're at the point that you're literally Lording to catch a buffed midare but not after the card system is very straightforward and AST is nearly as mobile as a ranged physical dps) the idea that the difficulty of a job should mean it is inherently better just means that either jobs which aren't as difficult now (say, RDM) can never and should never be meta because they would need to dismantle the entire job just to make it "harder" to justify buffing its contribution.

Besides all that, as is very clear by playing around in PF and DF, different people find different jobs to be harder or easier depending on a wealth of things. If I am forced to melee I can actually pull it together and be a passable NIN but for some reason DRG just makes me go totally pants-on-head-stupid. "The community" thinks NIN is harder than DRG but for me the opposite is true. Who's scaling do we base this theoretical damage hierarchy on? If it's just general consensus then I guess I'm lucky because I click better with some jobs that other people find weird but that doesn't really seem very fair.

There is very little in this game that can be universally classed with a specific relative difficulty to it's peers and something as integral as job balance should stay far away from such shaky ground.

[GrimGale]

Since you seem so opposed to WHM getting any kind of rDPS utility I'd then ask how you'd prefer their dps be balanced against AST and SCH?

Should a top end WHM contribute as much dps as a SCH/AST in a group playing more or less perfectly? Or should WHM be capping out below what SCH or AST can bring? Because most SCHs I see around here seem to think that WHM not having utility also means that their utility via Chain should see them contributing more than a WHM in a higher end scenario.

I hope this makes it clear why this mentality is inherently impossible to adhere to if your goal is actual healer contribution balance.

I feel we're no longer talking about the same thing. I was trying to stay around class identity, you're talking about class balance.

In any case numbers should be about the same. Ideally all healers should have the same potential output. Some would depend on proper cooldown alignement more than others but then again which job doesn't. Even selfish classes use the boosts others bring.

I am against giving each healer the same re-skinned skills. We've seen enough of that, WHM being the primary victim of it.

[Absurdity]

I guess I could've worded that better. I never said WHM should be the baby healer, when I talked about AST's rDPS I was talking about the current healer design. Yes, AST healing is easy but getting the maximum benefit out of it's party buffs is not, like your Midare example. And if you manage to achieve that level of basically perfect play, not just from you but also from your party to make the most out of these buffs, then you should be able to contribute more dps than a job that is basically just "spam button for dps and profit".

If SE decides to give WHM a more complex kit for it's dps then you won't hear me complain about it and if that leads to the best WHMs having the potentially highest healer dps contribution then that's also a non-issue...maybe fix the clunky parts while they're at it.

The issue here is that when you combine these two statements together you get a perpetual meta that will never and (if we take those statements to be facts) should never change.

Not that it shouldn't change but simply that people have to accept that there will always be a meta unless you literally make every job the same within a given role, which is not a desirable outcome. The simple fact is that as long as jobs bring different benefits to a party then there will be jobs which perform better than others in a specific environment.