Tales from Duty Finder: Some make you laugh, some make you cry. Let's vent.

[Liam_Harper]

I'm truly baffled today. Was running a shadowbringer dungeon and the tank is just dyingggg. Usually, I can figure out what's happening. Maybe they're undergeared? Not using tank cooldowns? DPS is doing low damage and things are taking forever?

SHB dungeons hit fairly hard. I remember being baffled when leveling AST. After 72 with a strong toolkit I'd expect it to be smooth sailing but tanks seemed to eat Star, CE, CU, ED and AspBenefic and it still wouldn't be near enough and I'd end up going all in Synastry + Benefic II spam. I saw Rampart and Sentinel/Vengeance and their gear seemed fine.

In the end I just concluded that big pulls in ShB must hit like a truck. It was actually fun and tested the toolkit, but I'd say healing any Savage fight is twice as easy as those Normal dungeons were.

[Erim-Nelhah]

"You pull you tank" manages to combine the worst elements of both toxic and lazy players.

You can't die in toto-rak unless your healer is asleep. Turn on tank stance, press your only available AoE button - boom, you have primary threat on everything in (at most) to hits.

I've tanked it as both a dps and a healer before for various reasons. That early in the game no one's role really matters.

I think that, because of the way you put this, either you don't play tanks at all, or you're one of those tanks that believes "Pull to the wall, always, no exceptions". Either way, here are a few things you need to realize:

• Not all players are equally comfortable tanking large numbers of mobs. For new tanks, it can take time to get used to the fact that mobs in most dungeons hit a tank like a wet noodle, and one bad healer early in a tank's career can severely affect the amount of time this takes.
• Not all dungeons are equally mass-able. Stone Vigil is one where pulling too much can get you killed without a skilled healer, and the same goes for the Shadowbringers leveling dungeons. Plus, there are specific pulls in some dungeons that hit hard enough to be worrisome.
• Not all groups are equally capable of burning down large numbers of enemies. This is mostly relevant in very low level dungeons - pre-30 for most melee, pre-40 for LNC/DRG - but also applies to groups with DPS who refuse to AoE for whatever reason (ugh).
• Not all healers are equally capable of handling mass pulls correctly, or comfortable doing so.

In any of the above cases, someone pulling ahead of the tank is annoying at best, and can lead to a full party wipe at worst.

This is why I tend to agree with "You pull, you tank", although in all my years of tanking (I still tank sometimes even today) I can count the number of times I've actually mentioned (much less enforced) this policy on one hand.

--Erim Nelhah

[ICountFrom0]

I had a group wipe lastnight. Yes the healer was a little weak, but that's also one of the hardest in it's level range to heal. I pulled double at the start (to the wall there is four packs), splat. So, I start off slower. Do one pack, have things under control, DPS runs and pulls a second pack. I grab it. Healer does not keep up. WIPE.

Two packs was a wipe, so dps went and took a second pack anyway. Then started to insult the healer.

Sometimes, this is what you get.

[Cincierta]

Not really a duty finder but overworld encounter.

I was waiting for the t3 Thanalan soil node to pop on my miner (because crossbreeding seeds is an absolute b*tch) when I saw a lvl 60 sam doing the lvl 60 SB class quest. You know, the one where you fight the hounds on the way to Silver Bazaar.

They were wearing lvl 51-57 gear on the left, lvl 60 augmented primal accessories on the right and 1 lvl 52 hq ring. Their weapon was the seeing horde katana. Poor guy was just melting from the doggos they ran away and barely lived. They came back after the doggos despawned, I swapped to whm and basically heal-carried their flailing self through. My Dias did more damage than their aoes, and I was doing nothing other than dropping a single regen on them. I felt so bad.

Then I realized they were in a large free company and had what I realized was the late allagan pvp set glamoured on. My sympathies were short-lived, swapped back to miner once the doggies were dead, and went back to getting my soil.

My sympathies for those that encounter said sam in duty finder.

[Veis_Alveare]

I think that, because of the way you put this, either you don't play tanks at all, or you're one of those tanks that believes "Pull to the wall, always, no exceptions". Either way, here are a few things you need to realize:

• Not all players are equally comfortable tanking large numbers of mobs. For new tanks, it can take time to get used to the fact that mobs in most dungeons hit a tank like a wet noodle, and one bad healer early in a tank's career can severely affect the amount of time this takes.
• Not all dungeons are equally mass-able. Stone Vigil is one where pulling too much can get you killed without a skilled healer, and the same goes for the Shadowbringers leveling dungeons. Plus, there are specific pulls in some dungeons that hit hard enough to be worrisome.
• Not all groups are equally capable of burning down large numbers of enemies. This is mostly relevant in very low level dungeons - pre-30 for most melee, pre-40 for LNC/DRG - but also applies to groups with DPS who refuse to AoE for whatever reason (ugh).
• Not all healers are equally capable of handling mass pulls correctly, or comfortable doing so.

In any of the above cases, someone pulling ahead of the tank is annoying at best, and can lead to a full party wipe at worst.

This is why I tend to agree with "You pull, you tank", although in all my years of tanking (I still tank sometimes even today) I can count the number of times I've actually mentioned (much less enforced) this policy on one hand.

--Erim Nelhah

I don't believe in "always pulling to the wall, no exceptions" so your assumption kind of does what assumptions tend to do.

You have some other glaring errors I'd like to point out though.

The mechanics of tanking or healing a large pull remain the same as a small one so this idea that someone might "not be comfortable" tanking or healing a large pull are just nonsense. That's like saying you aren't comfortable fighting enemies in multiples of two or enemies wielding axes - it's literally down to the differences in the animation you're going to see.

If you have more 3 or more enemies on you as a tank you should be using your AoE combo. It's worth noting that this is also simpler than any tank's single target rotation so it's not as if expecting them to do so is asking them to do something hard. Beyond that you just use one CD at a time as they're up, don't stand in the orange and you're fine. Sure, there are ways to optimize beyond that but like... you don't need to. You don't even need good uptime to keep threat anymore, tank stance has such a strong multiplier.

As a healer all that changes is the bang for your buck that you might see from some of your mitigation (large pulls making it *more* effective) and an increased need to cast GCD heals. If you can't press the Cure 2 button sometimes do everyone a favor and get out of group content.

Lastly, you bring up the idea that not all groups have AoE abilities at low levels- that's very true in a vacuum. The issue is that tanks do have AoE at those levels and that healers do not. This means the healer's potential dps in a group setting plummets while the tank's goes up. I guarantee you a tank mass-pulling Sastasha, even with two melee dps, will clear significantly faster than a single pulling group even with the healer reduced to hitting just their heal button sometimes.

So no, nothing you posted is in any way a decent defense of toxic/lazy players abdicating responsibility for their job and griefing their groups.

[Seddrinth]

Literally first time tanking (Never did those classes before) and I queued in for Toto-Rak as I was doing the beginner dungeons one by one to learn the class.
DPS runs ahead and tries to tank everything. I said in chat, hey can you stop running ahead, I don't learn the class if I can't do anything. Says they're just trying to get through it.I left.

Like I understand if you're busy as hell for the later dungeons and just want to get through them.
But the beginner ones are literally for learning and progressing the story. This person was not a new adventurer, they were a normal like me, so there was no progression and no need for EXP.
Therefore they had no excuse to ignore and 'just want to get through it'. If it was roulette, then have some dang patience.

This happened to a dungeon I was in. The dps kept pulling ahead even though the rest of us asked him/her to stop. So what we did is we just put up with it until we reached the very last boss. We told that person you may think you are saving time by running ahead and forcing us to catch up but we're going to kick you now and you will have wasted all your time. And so we kicked that person. I hope that player learned the lesson.

[HeulGDarian]

This happened to a dungeon I was in. The dps kept pulling ahead even though the rest of us asked him/her to stop. So what we did is we just put up with it until we reached the very last boss. We told that person you may think you are saving time by running ahead and forcing us to catch up but we're going to kick you now and you will have wasted all your time. And so we kicked that person. I hope that player learned the lesson.

You should have kicked him immediately, not at the end. 2 wrongs don't make 1 right.

[Veis_Alveare]

This happened to a dungeon I was in. The dps kept pulling ahead even though the rest of us asked him/her to stop. So what we did is we just put up with it until we reached the very last boss. We told that person you may think you are saving time by running ahead and forcing us to catch up but we're going to kick you now and you will have wasted all your time. And so we kicked that person. I hope that player learned the lesson.

The only lesson learned here is that sometimes DF groups are extra terrible, which that dps likely already knew.

[Rae88]

This happened to a dungeon I was in. The dps kept pulling ahead even though the rest of us asked him/her to stop. So what we did is we just put up with it until we reached the very last boss. We told that person you may think you are saving time by running ahead and forcing us to catch up but we're going to kick you now and you will have wasted all your time. And so we kicked that person. I hope that player learned the lesson.

"Offensive expression" means an expression in general that inflicts emotional distress by being offensive to another person. Offensive expression may include:

Expressions that compel a playing style

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

For anyone reading the thread don't do this. If you don't like the way someone plays and is causing you distress maybe can kick them at the start of the run or leave yourself. A lecture about playstyle though could just end up getting you reported

[Rae88]

I think that, because of the way you put this, either you don't play tanks at all, or you're one of those tanks that believes "Pull to the wall, always, no exceptions". Either way, here are a few things you need to realize:

• Not all players are equally comfortable tanking large numbers of mobs. For new tanks, it can take time to get used to the fact that mobs in most dungeons hit a tank like a wet noodle, and one bad healer early in a tank's career can severely affect the amount of time this takes.
• Not all dungeons are equally mass-able. Stone Vigil is one where pulling too much can get you killed without a skilled healer, and the same goes for the Shadowbringers leveling dungeons. Plus, there are specific pulls in some dungeons that hit hard enough to be worrisome.
• Not all groups are equally capable of burning down large numbers of enemies. This is mostly relevant in very low level dungeons - pre-30 for most melee, pre-40 for LNC/DRG - but also applies to groups with DPS who refuse to AoE for whatever reason (ugh).
• Not all healers are equally capable of handling mass pulls correctly, or comfortable doing so.

In any of the above cases, someone pulling ahead of the tank is annoying at best, and can lead to a full party wipe at worst.

This is why I tend to agree with "You pull, you tank", although in all my years of tanking (I still tank sometimes even today) I can count the number of times I've actually mentioned (much less enforced) this policy on one hand.

--Erim Nelhah

Generally because the "you pull you tank" mantra describes what happens in MMOs when threat is difficult to establish, especially with MMOs that give a emnity bonus on the one who first establishes threat. In these cases the mantra descibes what often happens.

It wasn't really created to apply to MMOs like modern FFXIV which is why the rule rarely occurs and when it does it has to be deliberately enforced