SMN is good damage, but still has serious quality-of-life, fantasy, and design issues

[xsis]

i know u feel.....i know

[HyperiusUltima]

Generally the idea of a 'pet' class feels redundant when your interactions are laggy as crap. That's what SMN is right now.

When spamming Assaults, you can get inputs eaten(Or, worse, Ifrit has to WALK ALL THE WAY OVER and do a thing before chasing the boss ALL THE WAY BACK). They've had a lot of time to try and fix it, and it's like they hadn't even thought to just remove them outright as others have said repeatedly over the years since Stormblood.

I'd be all for giving SMN just Three Skills dedicated to Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda in particular that are one-off summons with a CD attached. SMN already has plenty to manage, but it shouldn't be punished for pressing buttons it's supposed to in rotation. For example: Flaming Crush. You hit Flaming Crush, Ifrit goes to do it. If you try to use the same one again before he can get it off(or if the pet is still dedicated to an auto) then it becomes stuck in the queue. Enkindle in particular is notorious for getting stuck in the pet's queue of actions. By tying those skills to SMN it'd make things responsive enough to where they aren't feeling like it's a punishment for pressing buttons in their rotation(no ghosting).

[Dyvid]

If the pets are causing a majority of the problems then YES, get rid of them.

They've had over 7 years to get this right.

But, hey, with one of the NPCs in 5.35 being a Beastmaster maybe they have big plans for pet classes in 6.0.

Except pets aren't the major problem, people just want to hide behind that excuse. If it was it would be the least played job in the game year after year. I've been on the forums a long long time and see Summoner post after post. The number one issue isn't function but form. People are upset that "Summoner" isn't what they envisioned and thus wants it changed to their whim regardless if players actually enjoy it or not. SMN plays better now than it ever did 7 years ago, and while it may have copied Vanilla WoW's Warlock design both classes/jobs have evolved far beyond those early days.

There is no doubt that FFXIV game engine has issue when it comes to network code and no doubt that the devs didn't really plan around those limits when designed pet feedback, but design around the limit can be done and can fix minor issue with pet A.I. problems.

Honestly I which people would just post they want better Egi designs than posting remove all Egi. You don't burn down a house because it needs a fresh coat of paint.

[reivaxe]

Except pets aren't the major problem, people just want to hide behind that excuse. If it was it would be the least played job in the game year after year.

Depends on what you're talking about.

To a Reg Joe Blow without ACT and who (like most players) doesn't do demanding content then playing the job suboptimal isn't a problem cause it's not something they "see". What they see is that the job CAN do some of the highest DPS on FFlogs and has objectively the most mobility of any caster (casting time being the draw back that casters have to work around) and a free Healer as a 2-for-1 deal.

Balance and job/ game design wise? Pets and the pet system DO cause a majority of their problems for the devs. The devs are always doing massive reworks for Smn because of how janky the foundation of this pet system is for them in this game. It's kinda funny how many things Smn juggles to "work" as a concept. That's why it got a baby nerf, the devs know that it deals too much damage at high level play for the amount of things it's allowed to do and the freedoms it has compared to the other casters ... but they can't make it do too low DPS or else no one would put up with all the clunk.

The devs aren't perfect by any means, they struggle to design and balance stuff just like anyone would. As someone who only started playing DPS this Expac I was shocked to find out that Ranged were given cast times for an expansion.

[Dyvid]

SNIP

Sorry but I just don't buy it. If the job played like hot garbage, people wouldn't play it since there are other jobs that are equal in terms of FFLOG DPS output. I honestly believe play it because at the end of the day they enjoy playing it.

The FFXIV game engine and the pet system is what it is but the dev fail to predict then design around it's limitations. Further more they hesitate to fix the glaring problem after a new expansion and you really see big changes after the X.1 series.

I said at the early on set of 5.0 that Ifrit needs a gap closer and to remove his AoE to avoid "miss". Further more long duration Egi DoT Attacks don't work that well now that they get removed once a Demi-Pet is summoned, a fix would be adjusting the duration to fit into a projected rotation. Personally I would change how the Egi Assault system works all together were as Aetherflow is the resource to perform Egi Assault, change it back to OGCD, and each is Egi Assault has a 5 second cooldown. Further more I would have combined Death Trance with Demi Bahamut and make it would similar to Demi Phoenix phase.

Demi-Pet A.I. suffer from an auto follow issue since 4.0 that the Dev just don't seem to understand how to fix or don't care to fix it. You either control them via pet hotbar or make them auto attack "Target my Target".

As I said before, 5.0 introduced a good tool set but the tools where just tossed in the box without any thought on how it should be organized. 5.0 needed a rotation design in phases to make it feel good. 40s Egi Phase followed by a 20s Demi Phase. Egi Phase is were you do all your Assaults and Enkindle with timers that match, focus on keeping DoTs up and prepping for Demi Summon. Demi Phase is where you focus on casting Trance spells and Demi Enkindles.

[Grimoire-M]

I mostly agree with Dyvid here. Trances and Summons need consolidation. Devotion needs to be sourced from the Summoner, and Drain/Siphon/Fester/Painflare need to be reworked via upgrades. Restoring Aetherflow would actually help here honestly.

[HeulGDarian]

I mostly agree with Dyvid here. Trances and Summons need consolidation. Devotion needs to be sourced from the Summoner, and Drain/Siphon/Fester/Painflare need to be reworked via upgrades. Restoring Aetherflow would actually help here honestly.

It actually needs decoupling not consolidation. Because its extremely rigid and screws you over depending the fight.
In order for that to happen and for people who like the transform spells during demi phase to be happy. They should move the transformation into the the demi and not the trance like it is now, they should rework the trance.
Maybe they can make it so that trance transforms the ogcds like people seem to want. This would also make it so that fester painflare and the rest of the spells dont need to be meaninglessly reworked to adher to aesthetics that lack knowledge of the depth and importance Summoner had throughout the series.
As for the egis, they will get an upgrade sooner or later , if they go for the rule of 3 with the demis and try to spread it through 2 mins then the egis timer will yet again be halved so for their dmg to stay on par it needs to be doubled which means it will need to be on par with demis. Basically homogenizing the 2 dps wise but with different mechs, which is what the point of the egis is, a different flavour of demis, and it is why they will never ever make them the same as demis.
Now unless they change the system in order to give us option on what we want to summon instead of this tower of babylon chain that makes the rotation go to the stratosphere. We will get a third tier of summons what that tier will be is up to interpretation, It needs to be stated that summoner as long as he has aether he can do anything, transformation into a primal form isnt out of the picture nor is summoning an even bigger summon.

[Grimoire-M]

It actually needs decoupling not consolidation. Because its extremely rigid and screws you over depending the fight.

I disagree. Aetherflow and Demi-Bahamut worked just fine in SB despite being interlocked. The problem there was Rouse and Devotion conflicting with Bahamut (a problem we still have) and Aetherflow locking out DWT and vice versa. The key is to have a -singular ability that isn’t directly tied to damage- act as a bridge through the rotation, then Merging Trance and Summon: Bahamut actually solves all of the problems with the current rotation being locked behind Trance. If Aetherflow always lets us ready the next Trance or Summon in the cycle and gives us stacks for Fester/Painflare while the use of Trance/Summon in of itself cycles our rotation, then we prevent most of the problems we currently have. Hell, I feel SE could even reintroduce Rouse and/or Spur as low level alternative versions of Trance to bring the overall concept down to ARR ‘s part of the curve again if they wanted.

In addition we can also merge Enkindle, Deathflare, and Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix into one button. The only thing separating those three buttons in practice is the context of Trance/Egi/Demi to begin with, which we can reference when needed. The result is we have keyed the rotation to the same 20:40 split each minute, ensured everything cycles properly, and used a common thread of context sensitive buttons to eliminate a ton of bloat while streamlining things for the average player. And we’ve given SE more room to grow the rotation both at low -and- high levels. And apart from the lack of Aethertrail timers this is basically how SMN’s core rotation functioned back in HW, where I’d argue it was its most stable and engaging. The only other button in need of a change then is Tri-Disaster, which would work fine with a CD of 40s and two charges anyways.

To me, that’s SMN’s best case scenario for ensuring long term growth, but the overhaul that comes with it might be enough to kick out a new Demi-primal, hence why I’d prefer fleshing out what we have further.

[HeulGDarian]

I disagree. Aetherflow and Demi-Bahamut worked just fine in SB despite being interlocked. The problem there was Rouse and Devotion conflicting with Bahamut (a problem we still have) and Aetherflow locking out DWT and vice versa. The key is to have a -singular ability that isn’t directly tied to damage- act as a bridge through the rotation, then Merging Trance and Summon: Bahamut actually solves all of the problems with the current rotation being locked behind Trance. If Aetherflow always lets us ready the next Trance or Summon in the cycle and gives us stacks for Fester/Painflare while the use of Trance/Summon in of itself cycles our rotation, then we prevent most of the problems we currently have. Hell, I feel SE could even reintroduce Rouse and/or Spur as low level alternative versions of Trance to bring the overall concept down to ARR ‘s part of the curve again if they wanted.

In addition we can also merge Enkindle, Deathflare, and Enkindle Bahamut/Phoenix into one button. The only thing separating those three buttons in practice is the context of Trance/Egi/Demi to begin with, which we can reference when needed. The result is we have keyed the rotation to the same 20:40 split each minute, ensured everything cycles properly, and used a common thread of context sensitive buttons to eliminate a ton of bloat while streamlining things for the average player. And we’ve given SE more room to grow the rotation both at low -and- high levels. And apart from the lack of Aethertrail timers this is basically how SMN’s core rotation functioned back in HW, where I’d argue it was its most stable and engaging. The only other button in need of a change then is Tri-Disaster, which would work fine with a CD of 40s and two charges anyways.

To me, that’s SMN’s best case scenario for ensuring long term growth, but the overhaul that comes with it might be enough to kick out a new Demi-primal, hence why I’d prefer fleshing out what we have further.

Sure aetherflow is good enough of a clock to completely fix all the problems coupling those 2 has. However to me this consolidation is effectively the removal of trance which doesnt matter that much considering the leveling allows for trance to exist, like firebird trance. Also tridi wouldnt need any changes cause the reset still exists even on the coupled firebird trance.
Ye i actually dont have any problems with this. I do still wish however we would still get them decoupled cause with that we get yet another layer of safety ( with the ability to end it early and free movement) and maybe we can get some more interactions with the kit such as egi powerup or even a system that could give options to choose what to summon.


But fair enough you make a good point

[dinnertime]

Meanwhile my biggest gripe with 5.x Summoner is definitely how detached everything feels, all because they changed how Aetherflow, the very foundation of the job, worked. I don't really care if they bring it back or delete it entirely for something that works the same or similarly (but better), Summoner feels like a chore to play ever since these changes along with other lingering problems it has like pet action ghosting, the Egi Assaults, lack of flexibility etc.

People asking for only cosmetic/thematic changes along with design overhauls isn't going to help Summoner in any way, especially when design overhauls just replace things and not necessarily fix the problem. Also the current iteration of FFXIV Summoner already does a good job in making it feel traditional and less of a disease mage like it used to be.