The State of the Ascians (Assume Spoilers as of TODAY)

[ShadowMeowth]

At this juncture, I assume they are being held in the wings for future story lines. Even though we are approaching the end of the Hydaelyn/Zodiark story they could become potential wildcards as the story continues because what is an Ascian if Zodiark ceases to be?

What would /we/ be if Hydaelyn ceases to be? Apparently not much different if Her tempering is similar to Zodiark's, because neither of them truly denies free will. Fandaniel does not seem to care much for Zodiark and he is an Ascian, and he was acting according to his own agenda even before we defeated Elidibus-aka-Heart-of-Zodiark. He has made his choice and it does not serve his elder primal's agenda; he makes it clear when he notes that Elidibus has not come to solve the chaos he has caused. If Fandaniel can choose to side with Zenos and bring about an apocalypse, the others, too, can pick a side. Or remain neutral. At least we know that now they have the choice and they will be the ones responsible for their actions.

[Kesey]

What would /we/ be if Hydaelyn ceases to be? Apparently not much different if Her tempering is similar to Zodiark's, because neither of them truly denies free will. Fandaniel does not seem to care much for Zodiark and he is an Ascian, and he was acting according to his own agenda even before we defeated Elidibus-aka-Heart-of-Zodiark. He has made his choice and it does not serve his elder primal's agenda; he makes it clear when he notes that Elidibus has not come to solve the chaos he has caused. If Fandaniel can choose to side with Zenos and bring about an apocalypse, the others, too, can pick a side. Or remain neutral. At least we know that now they have the choice and they will be the ones responsible for their actions.

I agree. But I have a feeling we may not be the side of Hydaelyn much longer. She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded, and if Zodiark is out of the picture entirely, what is stopping her from splitting the worlds again so Zodiark never happens again? That would lead to a calamity of its own.

[ShadowMeowth]

I agree. But I have a feeling we may not be the side of Hydaelyn much longer. She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded, and if Zodiark is out of the picture entirely, what is stopping her from splitting the worlds again so Zodiark never happens again? That would lead to a calamity of its own.

Exactly. We /are/ the eikon-slayer after all. I have been wary of Hydaelyn from even before 5.0, and after knowing that Azem refused to have anything to do with both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and that primals are indeed a blight upon the star, it will fall to us to get rid of them. Of /both/. Give back the reins of fate to mankind, just like in the Ancients' time before the Final Days, and put an end to the first war that began when Light was set against Dark and it is still going on.

[Lauront]

I agree. But I have a feeling we may not be the side of Hydaelyn much longer. She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded, and if Zodiark is out of the picture entirely, what is stopping her from splitting the worlds again so Zodiark never happens again? That would lead to a calamity of its own.

More than this, the power boost she offers may become superfluous - if we see a return of the Convocation (via their crystals, via Azem's, or by some other means) in some shape or other, they may return to their role as guardians of the planet, even if spiritually. My suspicion is that she, as a Primal, does not truly know the full picture in the way that her heart might. Even then, given what we saw of Elidibus (albeit mostly towards the end), perhaps Venat's memory too has become addled by the imperative to "check" the darkness. Elidibus in the 5.0 epilogue refers to the fact that it is both her summoners' and her intention for memories of the ancient world to be forgotten. How will she react to recent events, which go completely against this? I am hoping this will set the stage for her removal and for the reinstatement of the Convocation as guardians over the star.

What would /we/ be if Hydaelyn ceases to be? Apparently not much different if Her tempering is similar to Zodiark's, because neither of them truly denies free will. Fandaniel does not seem to care much for Zodiark and he is an Ascian, and he was acting according to his own agenda even before we defeated Elidibus-aka-Heart-of-Zodiark. He has made his choice and it does not serve his elder primal's agenda; he makes it clear when he notes that Elidibus has not come to solve the chaos he has caused. If Fandaniel can choose to side with Zenos and bring about an apocalypse, the others, too, can pick a side. Or remain neutral. At least we know that now they have the choice and they will be the ones responsible for their actions.

Hmm I am still uncertain about it. Although it is clear, to me, that the Ascians are not tempered in a way that denies them their free will - this was readily apparent from Emet-Selch, too, - they could still go down the path that some of the sundered Overlords, like Nabriales, or indeed Fandaniel, thought that the focus of the unsundered on first and foremost restoring the world and all the souls in it to their original and proper state was detracting from reviving Zodiark. To the unsundered, he is a means to an end, even if they revere him. Those sundered shards less invested in their vision might think they're unnecessarily dragging their feet, and just want the Primal back, right away; this was apparent from how Elidibus (and Lahabrea) commented on the Ardor not being Nabriales's to usher in. The Rejoinings, after all, are primarily to reinstate the world to its pre-sundering form and based on what we know, it's not clear to me that they're required to revive Zodiark, per se. Thus the Rejoinings might well be subservient to the other aims of the unsundered - aims which the likes of Fandaniel do not share.

In any case, it's clear from 3.4 that Hydaelyn does temper, as she pretty much says this in so many words right here. When she says "as the Ascians must...", to me it's clear that she is exercising similar control; maybe not the "hard" tempering we see with the beast tribes, but a conditional form of it, perhaps through the medium of the Blessing. I believe it's erroneously assumed by many people that tempering must be slavish mind control, and that's why it's often dismissed as being present in her case.

The main purpose of tempering, as per the dialogue here - where Emet elaborates on the nature of tempering - is to spread the primal's element/energy. The Blessing functioned in just this way on the First with regard to the Warriors of Light.

I believe Fandaniel might be baiting Zenos with a false promise, because Zenos is short-sighted and single-minded, as well as of the belief that Zodiark is just a primal like any other. I doubt Zenos understands what it would mean to become his heart and I doubt it even matters to Fandaniel. Zenos is a useful wrecking ball to him.

I wonder if the reason behind Zenos having the visions is less to do with Emet giving him memories, or him being an ancient shard (as with everyone else) but instead link to him being behind whatever caused the sound that led to the crisis. Let's say there was a collaborator in the Convocation, like some assumed - that could have been Fandaniel. The others wouldn't know it. Alternatively, the memories his crystal confers could just be too weak to awaken in him a strong commitment to the cause of the unsundered in their absence. So I guess I'm torn between whether Fandaniel is acting in line with that part of tempering which would have him ensure the Primal's return - even if it's not erasure of one's will, it does compel at least that much - or whether he truly does have some agenda of his own.

Still, I am hoping some of the remaining sundered Overlords become approachable now that we've taken on the duty of preserving the memory of the ancient world and unsundered, and that they don't all fall in line with Fandaniel. Though it depends in the end on whether the urge to rush to revive the Primal will now become more dominant in the absence of the unsundered, or not. I rather tire of just dealing with the Ascians as antagonists, so I'd like to see at least one change their usual tack in the way Emet almost accomplished - there is little standing in the way of it but the writers' will to make it happen now.

Exactly. We /are/ the eikon-slayer after all. I have been wary of Hydaelyn from even before 5.0, and after knowing that Azem refused to have anything to do with both Hydaelyn and Zodiark, and that primals are indeed a blight upon the star, it will fall to us to get rid of them. Of /both/. Give back the reins of fate to mankind, just like in the Ancients' time before the Final Days, and put an end to the first war that began when Light was set against Dark and it is still going on.

Yup, I think it is the answer implied in this question. The neutral status of Azem, coupled with how she secured their cooperation, by not revealing the full picture, and the fact that Lahabrea was not really in the mood to reveal much, all aligned to aiding her in casting them off as the villains, without giving the full account of what really happened. Now it's possible that the Primal does not know this, but I am almost certain Venat, as the heart, would. Unless she, too, took her exit of Hydaelyn, I don't think she's particularly trustworthy and I suspect there may be ulterior motives, or she may have, like Elidibus, become fixated on a single imperative whilst forgetting the "why" of it. I don't think Hydaelyn or Zodiark were necessarily blights, so much as tools that have now outlived their purpose, but reading between the lines, the Primal reveal does suggest they will both end at some point. Zodiark will only be summoned to entertain Zenos and Fandaniel's games, rather than for his original purpose. So I wonder if we'll see the (memories of) the Convocation, rather than her, seek to end the abuse of a primal intended to save, and not destroy, the planet. Mayhap that will also mean there won't be a Primal about any longer in the Aetherial Sea, actively suppressing memories of the ancient world.

[Iscah]

She is a primal, her significant message "Hear, Feel, Think" are prerecorded...

People seem to have jumped to this conclusion based on Her call "never ceasing" but it wasn't actually stated that way.

Maybe I'm still fixated on Her acting as all-loving and benevolent creator-goddess (even if we now know it to be artificial) I read the idea of Her call never ceasing as that She literally never stops calling to Her "beloved children".

Until we actually get a chance to question Her directly, I'm going to assume She's essentially an AI programmed to act as a benevolent goddess, and may genuinely think She is one - acting on false information perhaps, but that doesn't automatically mean She has malicious intent.

[Veloran]

Until we actually get a chance to question Her directly,

You questioned her directly before and she lied to you though.

[ObsidianFire]

I mean... what did you want Hydaelyn to say in 3.x? "I'm an AI created by these creators called the Ancients, who existed before this world was split into 14 parts. They made me to keep back this other AI the Ancients created that was killing people by using up their aether to fix the world for them. Unfortunately, I was a lot weaker than he was, so I had to split him up to deal with him, but he was the Will of the Star at the time so splitting him split the world. Some of his summoners managed to avoid the splitting and became what you know as Ascians... who are also Ancients."

We'd have laughed her out of the building for talking about stuff she couldn't prove happened before our world history properly started. Too much has been destroyed on the Source to prove Amarot ever existed. Heck, the only reason we know she wasn't lying about there being a number of other reflections of our word actually exist (because we can't really communicated with the normal ones) was because we tangled with Ardbert and Co. who corroborated that fact!

So yeah... better to use terms we're already familiar with and tell the story about her relationship with Zoidark in such a way that doesn't bring the Ancients into it. What happened with the Ancients really doesn't matter in a lot of ways; they are gone. What matters is what situation the world(s) now are in and making sure more people don't die for nothing. And one of the realities of the situation we are in is that Hydaelyn is the Will of the Star... and she's super nice about not meddling in the affairs of man. Unlike the agents of Zoidark who are always meddling and always with the aim of making the situation worse than it started.

My big thing is... everything Hydaelyn said about her relationship with Zoidark was verified by Emet-Selch as being true. She was weaker than Zodiark. They were fighting in the Lifestream. Zodiark was going to kill a lot of beings (or rather, had already needed a lot of beings to die and needed/wanted more to die). Zoidark needed to be curtailed and that was her job. And she did do it, but the Ascians are weakening her by making Zoidark stronger... And Zodiark getting out of his Moon Prison sounds like a very, very bad thing.

[Rannie]

You questioned her directly before and she lied to you though.

Was it really a lie? Remember Obiwan said that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view

[Veloran]

We'd have laughed her out of the building for talking about stuff she couldn't prove happened before our world history properly started.

I mean, we don't laugh at her for claiming to be a primordial goddess of goodness and light who banished the evil darkness Zodiark from her own being before creating the world and bringing all mankind into existence. Nobody asked for proof for any of that.

My big thing is... everything Hydaelyn said about her relationship with Zoidark was verified by Emet-Selch as being true.

She claimed that before there was life, she and Zodiark dwelled as one being within the aetherial sea, and that she banished him from herself because he coveted power and broke the balance. She also describes splitting him from herself as what the sundering of the star was, and that in doing this the fabric of reality "chanced" to falter and split the world into fourteen.

This is all a pretty egregious load of lies designed to make herself look good, cast Zodiark and the Ascians as rote villains, and paint her sundering of the star as an accident. I don't know how anyone can take it any other way, with what we know now.

Was it really a lie?

Yes. It's not a point of view issue, what she tells us was not accurate to the reality of what happened.

[Iscah]

I She claimed that before there was life, she and Zodiark dwelled as one being within the aetherial sea, and that she banished him from herself because he coveted power and broke the balance. She also describes splitting him from herself as what the sundering of the star was, and that in doing this the fabric of reality "chanced" to falter and split the world into fourteen.

This is all a pretty egregious load of lies designed to make herself look good, cast Zodiark and the Ascians as rote villains, and paint her sundering of the star as an accident. I don't know how anyone can take it any other way, with what we know now.

The question is, what does She know and understand of the situation?

If her "program" is that Light and Dark must be kept in 50/50 balance while Zodiark's is to act alone with 100% power, then from Her perspective, Zodiark's actions constitute breaking the necessary balance and needing to be reined in. She doesn't need and may not have a full understanding of the situation to act this way - only as much as the programmer has told Her.

It is conceivable, until we have the chance to question Her directly - now armed with the knowledge to ask the right questions - that what we are told in 3.2 is not maliciously incorrect but coming from a skewed understanding.

And quite simply, I find the prospect of a well-meaning but misled pseudo-goddess far more interesting than a secretly evil one.