why are people so resistant to constructive criticism about the game?

[linayar]

There's probably several reasons for them not removing it, but I think a big one is they don't want to make unique totems and beast forms for every race, which is something people would definitely expect should they open up Shaman and Druid to everyone.

If that's the reason, I can accept that, for those two. Just remove it for the rest then.

[Shurrikhan]

What do you think is their intent? (I've heard it say race-class restrictions had to do with balancing the race population so that people just don't end up as one popular race, but I feel like each race has enough following and it really shouldn't matter in the end.)

And with the new universal (mandatory for new players, optional for older players) starting area, I think Shadowlands is a really fitting point to remove all restrictions. Although the expansion after when players return to Azeroth (maybe) could also work.

I think their intent was more or less just to protect the identities of those classes and races -- or, more simply put, to let everything make sense as well as they could with what time they had without scrapping any preexisting lore.

E.g. "Does your race have warrior-priests?" "Yes, but not in a way remotely like other warrior-priests (i.e. Paladins). We're literally antithetical to that, as we have been for multiple books and a, even more critically successful, video game prior to WoW." Well shoot.

What does one do in that case? Do Night Elves create their own Elunite answer to the Paladin, which other races would complain about lacking access to? Do they double-down on racial abilities, including adjustments to core class kits, for each class? (Honestly, that's still my preference.) And what of time constraints? And what of the game's metalanguage if Night Elf Warrior was seriously distinct from an Orcish Warrior who is in turn well distinct from a Troll or Tauren Warrior? I'd love it, but then we'd probably have lost a whole class's worth of playstyle to accommodate those nuances (i.e. to allow the playstyle of a warrior-priest among Night Elves within or through the existing classes). Would we even get Shaman or Hunter if, by manner of speaking, those are just two faces of the Troll tradition of warfare (each approachable through a very racially-specific form of Warrior)?

I don't it. The "what if" elements here are too many and to varied to point out intent by contrast. All I can say is, again, I feel like they did a good job (at least until perhaps right now, with Shadowlands) of stretching their limits within reason. Burning Crusade introduced the Blood Paladins, a pretty distinct style of the previously Alliance-unique Paladins. By its end, it had also brought spellcraft back to the Kaldorei, rather than them avoiding it as the art (alongside sorcery) that rent their world asunder. Thus, it returned to their class options in Cataclysm. Did whole plotlines arise just to lead into that extended customization? In some cases, maybe. In others, I'd argue it was no more than byproduct -- opportunities taken.

Now, with Shadowlands, if racial abilities hadn't already been compressed in the name of a fairer, more tightly balanced raid experience, I'd argue it's the perfect time to have a more racially-distinct Night Elf Paladin. We're about to learn a whole lot more about Elune. The Nightwarrior is unleashed. Everything is primed for it. And yet, I guess, they've decided that the aesthetic just still does not fit, that the Nightwarrior is more a thing of agility and mail and terrifying strength through simultaneous ferocity and stealth, quite opposite a Paladin. And while I'd prefer to be able to play that archetype on my Night Elf in some form, I'm okay with it not being bastardized just to suit the existing class structure. It sucks, a little, but I get it.

[linayar]

I think their intent was more or less just to protect the identities of those classes and races

See, I think that's a good reason, if those races hadn't been so involved with other races of their factions. Even now, Night Elves had been displaced and there are refugees living in Stormwind. It just doesn't make any sense to me that that they don't share knowledge with other races or that there couldn't be a few who are interested. I don't even think having one's own distinct version of a class like, say, paladin, is necessary at all.

But yes, I've agreed that they've, for the most part, handled the increase in race-class combinations well, and I think that just serves to prove the point that, if they want to, they could do more to increase it while still being true (for the most part) to their lore and history of the races.

(On the other hand, the concept of a Lightforged Draenei Shadow Priest is also one of the reason why I'm fine with FFXIV's more "boring" races and classes/jobs.)

Anyways, just to relate it more to FFXIV or this thread, there can be several "criticisms" that can be discussed if people are willing, and this one from WoW would be an example as there are very opinionated WoW players who would be against increasing race-class combinations.

[Shurrikhan]

See, I think that's a good reason, if those races hadn't been so involved with other races of their factions. Even now, Night Elves had been displaced and there are refugees living in Stormwind. It just doesn't make any sense to me that that they don't share knowledge with other races or that there couldn't be a few who are interested.

And that's where I'd disagree. They literally have a separate Patron goddess. Night Elves have are the only race-wide monotheistic society in the game. Inversely, all WoW Paladins are, in a sense, animist. They are more nearly shamans -- or, heck, Jedi -- than traditional priests, even if there can be some overlap within the WoW take on priests. WoW Priests can follow a deity, scion, archon, or a general force, but Paladins, while they may have patron saints of sorts only ever follow the force of light. For the Night Elves, all aspects of these forces, at least insofar as they can tap into them, are merely elements of Elune, boons specifically granted either directly through her favor or as a result of her world investiture. The predominant mission of their religion, moreover, is not the pursuit of good and defeat of evil, but a preservation of a much less bimodal variety. Even in the Tauren druidic or shamanistic views of the world, there is good and evil, and the glow of their plains at dawn and the "rightness" of that nature was only a couple steps short of light-worship. But in the Night Elf view? There is bane and boon, purity and taint, and there is corruption, but it rarely lends itself to the idea of good or evil, of the selfless and selfish. There is just the nature of things, and the natures we choose for ourselves (e.g. all-encompassing duty, so much deeper than even fits the word as humans might bandy it about). They're fundamentally different.

Again, I don't think it'd be impossible to make NE Paladins work, just... there would necessarily be some compromise in there, and I'm satisfied with how that has played out thus far. It honestly annoys me less than I may in some rare cases have to play a race other than Night Elf than that Night Elf lore would be retconned.

But, yes, that topic's certainly a decent microcosm of the larger span of discussions possible in regards to XIV. Oddly so.

[StriderShinryu]

The most hilarious thing that I've been noticing about this whole debate is the reaction to the FF14 anniversary media coverage that's been popping up lately. Every tweet or news article comment section is being bombarded by responses not from the supposedly fiercely defensive FF14 fanboy army but instead by WoW fans eager to bash FF14 because "their game" is still the best, FF14 is just for weebs, "once ShadowLands comes out!" etc. While it's true that some FF14 fans are too attached to the game, it's a complete bold faced lie to imply they're somehow alone in that (or are somehow worse than the wowheads out there).

[Catwho]

My take is that there are two types of criticism:

- That which comes from a place of genuinely wanting to improve the game. These suggestions are usually done in their proper place on this forum (which is not General Discussion!) or done in such a manner that they can go directly to SE's feedback time, such as a tweet that tags the FFXIV community.

- That which comes from a place of wanting other players to agree with them. These discussions occur in public forums, but the person has not necessarily done their research on how to get their feedback into an appropriate channel, instead choosing the most public place possible (General discussion, Reddit, Facebook.... etc.)

SE will listen to feedback when it's presented in the appropriate channel. They may not ever make a grand announcement thanking YOU personally for the suggestion, but that's fine. Some of my UI suggestions made it into the game and I'm thrilled about that (like the ability to reorder retainers that was stealth added in another patch.) That suggestion was made in the UI discussion section - not General - here on this very forum.

[Bearded]

I do not think that anyone is against changes or improvements - after all we enjoy the game.

However there are great many people who have suggested things from other games which they would like to see which would fundamentally change the FFXIV experience for everyone. Just because a feature was in the game they played and then got bored with does not mean it should exist in FFXIV.

Other changes are asked for which more experienced players know are just impossible to achieve based upon the history of FFXIV and the infamous spaghetti code.

Moreover suggestions for changes posted into "General Discussion" are more than likely to be picked over and debated - if people can not accept that other peoples opinions are valid even when they disagree with their own then maybe they should not post. Sometimes people with a different point of view can point things out which the original person did not consider and that therefore means progress is made - that's what impartial debate and taking other peoples views, opinions and experience into account is all about. Welcome to the real world.

[Shougun]

"stares wondering" =w=

UwU...

*wondering back what the question is*

Like more on SMN?

In ARR days (many many years ago, before demi and trances - the OG level 50 SMN) I asked for, among other people, for some stronger primal representation in the job and many lore-no people said SMN couldn't, that it simply is just not possible, have bigger more primal like pets because of lore. Not that it would take some time, or development of the job, but just nope no can't be done, impossible. I was also regularly told I was saying things I explicitly and almost regularly said I wasn't asking for (at one point I quoted every one of my posts in a mega thread (so like 50 posts lol) to prove that I never once, and regularly clarified the opposite, asked for 100% primal scale like what we see in the boss fights).

There was a huge amount of "I'm seeing what I want to see and not what is actually being said" mixed with "there is no possible way to interpret or evolve the lore in any fashion, no way for the story to unfold in any means possible, there is only one possible reading and that reading is mine" during that.

Now not to say SE was inspired by the idea but it got to the point I started writing lore and mechanics on how to make it work. And wrote about using the left over aether, either from Bahamut or from other mechanics summoner would gain (like pyreflies being released from their dots), in the air with battery like charging mechanics to be able to get summoner into a state that allows them to temporarily summon more powerful primal interactions (and that those didn't have to be 1:1 scale or literal primals, just closer to the actual primal representation rather than their caricature chibi form). Which happens to be very similar to what actually happened. Like I said though doesn't mean they 'were like, "not bad"' and used it, could just be like ideas coming out because it's a logical conclusion (could have been some influence, could have just been saying things that they were also thinking could be solutions). Similar thing has happened with a few other items like beast tribe interpretation (being told there is only one possible interpretation and so "sorry but not possible", being a bit let down with such a narrow view and so making up an interpretation on the spot to counter that concept, and then later SE releasing something that as very akin to that alternate suggestion).

The tunnel vision on lore-no's can get really intense sometimes. Hence I call them lore-no's, hyper restrictive interpretations of the lore that offer no room for development (not just restrictive but using that restriction to matter-of-factly shut desires and conversations down, rather than working within the framework to come up with potential solutions that could absolutely exist) and have on a few occasions been shown wrong (that there were actually potential solutions). Things don't need retcons in order to mutate/evolve/reveal, with the function of time, high creativity, and desire then nearly anything is possible. Which isn't to run so far to the opposite side to say lore isn't important, clearly is, the story is a major selling point for many people, the story should always be treated with respect (shouldn't run around trying to give people lore whiplash), but careful hands are not shackled hands. Creativity and time are powerful allies.

[CrispyUnicycle]

for sure, i can’t talk about how storms eye feels clunky, or how the entire game has a huge delay that makes pvp a pain, or hell, even personal opinions that don’t mean anything. mentioning how i wished lupin was added over hrothgar from sheer personal preference makes me a whiny, ungrateful complainer, even though its not a deal breaker and i still play anyways

it extends to players too, you can’t even tell someone that they’re not playing their job correctly, or that your not supposed to cast nothing but ruin on summoner, or that white mage has more spells than just cure 1 and 2 without me being yelled at, no matter how i frame it

it’s like, if you say something that has a hint of ill will no matter the context, you get snuffed out, you can only complain about things everyone else is complaining about. it’s not just ff14, but it sure feels like it has the most people like this

[Liam_Harper]

but instead by WoW fans eager to bash FF14 because "their game" is still the best, FF14 is just for weebs, "once ShadowLands comes out!" etc.

Ah, Shadowlands. Already they're starting to double down on and add things that their playerbase strongly disliked...

I don't get certain WoW fans, or indeed Blizzard fans, sometimes. They've been screwed over time and time again. Cataclysm was disappointing, WoD was an utter failure, Legion was endless grind, BFA was a massive flop, the Warcraft remake was one of the worst reviewed games, they've gone through content droughts of over a year, seen entire cities and ingame zones scrapped before release... yet "It'll be better this time, this is the expansion that'll revive the game!"

Have to almost admire that level of blind optimism.