Which jobs is at its prime?

[Rai_Takara]

While I agree Range lack in complexity to a certain degree. The whole justification around their low DPS has always been free mobility. Alas, the game simply does almost nothing to make use of that. This tier epitomizes it more than ever when despite being severely Melee unfriendly, all four dwarf the Range handily. There is little need for a mobility tax when fight design does not utilize one. If say, Light Rampant could be baited so Melee always get chains, you could use that mechanic as a launching point for their low DPS. But it doesn't. Furthermore, the rotational simplicity is not unique to Range. Red Mage is notoriously cited as one of the easiest jobs in the game. Dragoon isn't exactly screaming at complexity either, having the most straight forward rotation. Even Summoner, for all its complex, has nearly as much free mobility and laughably outperforms all three Range by a country mile.

Range mobility needs to be taken advantage of or the tax is simply arbitrary.

That's also what I mean by complexity, in that we aren't made to use our mobility as much for DPS, just mechanics. So far dancer has the most "complex" part of mobility in that they have to worry about being close for aoe procs and buffs. Personally, I'd really love it we were forced to use our mobility for damage. Then we'd have to make sacrifices too, just like melees, if a fight doesn't go our way. Another thing to point out is, part of the complexity comes from optimization. Jobs in general are quite simple if we plan to just press buttons, but doing really well and squeezing the smallest potency gains is really where the complexity comes into play (for example, aligning rotation with buffs). I can't say for certain this expansion, but I know in SB, RDM is of course easy to pickup and play just like dancer. But one of the harder jobs to optimize because of the RNG and needing to make quick decisions to get the most potency you can.

As for Shiva, it would definitely have made a difference if the groups had 2 melees or 1 melee, especially in earlier weeks. Nowadays you can have 100% uptime in light rampant but executing that is still harder than being a ranged getting to be in lala land.

One thing to consider is that the entire point is to not incentivize single melee comps. It imbalances raids. We need to be doing low damage so that people don't take more than one physical ranged. SE is still most likely going to nerf SMN more so that double caster comps won't also be as strong as double melee comps. It's clear with their raid design that SE has been trying to say "If you're good, you can clear with any comp, but if you want the best, you go with this." The same way they allow dupes but still penalize your LB generation. More or less, 2 DPS spots are for melee only and the other 2 are for caster and ranged. Once SMN gets tuned, and melees being buffed a tad to compete with SAM, I suspect that will naturally be the case.

Which isn't working in their favor, if true. Astro (and healers in general) have faced more complaints than ever before. Astro still remains the least played healer; only gaining some ground on Scholar due to the latter's lackluster rDPS. I suppose it's to each their own but I prefer the old system by far even if I acknowledge some of its flaws. Maybe by 6.0 they can iron things out but I can't say this iteration of Astro is a good one. If nothing else though, I'd at least like to see Sleeve Draw addressed before then.

It's working for raiders who like this iteration over the prior (the top end whom this expansion favors). As someone that has raided as Astro since HW release and only now picked up dancer because it exists, I think the current system is far better than the previous system. It's not perfect. Sleeve draw is an issue and there's more that can be done with seals and divination, but I can wait till next expansion. One might think they'd revert the changes but I wouldn't count on it. Unlike say BRD/MCH, this card rework was part of an overall larger homogenization plan to remove glaring balance issues and undoing AST cards would mean needing to undo the entire design principle of ShB which is unprecedented, to say the least.

As for play rate, AST has generally been the least played healer with exceptions of Creator and Alphascape. Though that could be attributed to end of tier people going for their parses. Now with rDPS, there's no need for AST so you could just see WHMs not moonlighting AST because their DPS wants a padded parse. So really, people will play what they want. Goal should never be to make all healers have similar play rates. That's what lead to creator and AST being busted.

[ReiMakoto]

snip

I don't inherently see the issue with single melee comps in a game that doesn't incentivise a meaningful difference between melee/ranged/caster uptime in the high end of optimisation. If the reason to take 2 melees, 1 caster and 1 ranged is literally just because of diversity bonus+ melees being strong, I dont see that as a win for balance. Until there is something that ultilised ranged mobility, or punishes casters/melee, then at the high end of balance they should all be outputting something similar so you could have 2 ranged or 2 casters. Note how I say high end as well though in this scenario where encounter design stays this way, which I do mean, because I think ranged should by rights have the most complicated/difficult to optimise rotation to perform well as they have more lenient uptime, so in order to get as much value out of a double ranged comp as a double melee comp you'd need to have very good ranged players or a good party in the case of buffer classes.

As for your AST comments, i think the glaring thing with old AST is we never saw it perform in an environment that utilised RDPS over A or regular DPS, and I truly think that most of the problems with old AST was on the player perception side due to how rankings worked, and even if old ast was still powerful in rdps, then nerfs could be done accordingly as nothing in its old kit was inherently broken.

[Renkei]

SMN,BLM,SAM,NIN,WHM,SCH,GNB,PLD.

[Ash_]

It depends on each individuals perspective, playstyle and ping.

For NIN it's DPS is probably in its prime now, but playability it fills me with disappointment and sadness with the direction they have taken it. The reliance on mudra for burst, the removal of shadow fang combo and subsequent nerfing of the dot, the overall slower pace. As a NIN main since ARR I don't play it to be a ranged caster, and yet that is now NIN 50% of the time.

SAM seems fine. But someone let me know what the point of shoha is someday.

SMN would be better if it didn't require a bachelor degree in micro management.

[AziraSyuren]

BLM and RDM are some of the most fun I've ever had playing a job in all the 5+ years I've been playing the game. I really hope they don't make any core changes to those jobs and just add on to them.

[Rai_Takara]

I don't inherently see the issue with single melee comps in a game that doesn't incentivise a meaningful difference between melee/ranged/caster uptime in the high end of optimisation. If the reason to take 2 melees, 1 caster and 1 ranged is literally just because of diversity bonus+ melees being strong, I dont see that as a win for balance. Until there is something that ultilised ranged mobility, or punishes casters/melee, then at the high end of balance they should all be outputting something similar so you could have 2 ranged or 2 casters. Note how I say high end as well though in this scenario where encounter design stays this way, which I do mean, because I think ranged should by rights have the most complicated/difficult to optimise rotation to perform well as they have more lenient uptime, so in order to get as much value out of a double ranged comp as a double melee comp you'd need to have very good ranged players or a good party in the case of buffer classes.

As for your AST comments, i think the glaring thing with old AST is we never saw it perform in an environment that utilised RDPS over A or regular DPS, and I truly think that most of the problems with old AST was on the player perception side due to how rankings worked, and even if old ast was still powerful in rdps, then nerfs could be done accordingly as nothing in its old kit was inherently broken.

In terms of raid design and mechanics, it creates a level playing field and makes it easier for the design team to make raids more interesting. Take mechanics like light rampant, which unless heavily optimized, will always favor a ranged dps. Now if everyone started favoring more ranged DPS then they'll have to design raids to make it challenging for those compositions, but then we leave double melee comps out and considering that out of all jobs, melee have the most to optimize for their damage, it's a bit silly. If anything, at the top end, only BLM should outdo melees while the other casters are below melees, with ranged under casters. That's basically the end goal whether SE makes fights hard on uptime or not.

As for AST, the RNG nature of buffs was what was broken and was always a thing that was complained about on the top end. RNG buffs are not good design is the crux of the issue. That's why we have the system we have now. If a new system can be made without RNG damage buffs, then it can be looked into. Otherwise what we have works best. Personally, they can definitely expand on the seal system and give the other niche buffs tied to seal combinations. So not only will divination give 6% always, no matter the seal combination, but depending on the combination you get some fluff buffs with it (like old bole, mp regen, etc).

[Ariel_Valmont]

MNK

Fast paced, fluid rotation, mobile, can take a licking and keep on ticking.

[AncientPowerfulCurse]

I'll chime in as a NIN main and say I can't remember it being better. I've always felt they should have pushed the semi-caster role it has stronger and I've gotten exactly what I want from ShB. I see what the complaints are but I'm definitely thinking it's almost there and I love that I'm not purely a trick attack and limit break slave.

[ItMe]

I'll chime in as a NIN main and say I can't remember it being better. I've always felt they should have pushed the semi-caster role it has stronger and I've gotten exactly what I want from ShB. I see what the complaints are but I'm definitely thinking it's almost there and I love that I'm not purely a trick attack and limit break slave.

I'm with you.
I hate trick attack... Yet I adore the current NIN.
I no longer get stress headaches trying to stay on top of the sloppy mess it was in Stormblood.

[Vendalwind]

Just Piping in to say I dont personally think NIN is in its prime. I was not happy with many aspects of the rework, and Im still frustrated that skill speed is literally a NINs worst stat by design.

However there are different ways to look at what Prime means.

If talking about play-ability NIN is definitely the best its ever been even if i personally dont like it. (and Im definitely not the only NIN main that doesnt like all the changes)

However NIN is in a happy spot meta wise, but not a great spot among the melee (its contribution is more complex, team reliant and the lowest/second lowest in most fights)
NIN was Meta prime when it had a special role as a threat manager for tanks so they could dps stance more often in STB.

Meta wise right now the prime job is probably SMN. from dps, to raises, to utility, to freedom of movement its the tops. Playability wise tho it has some terrible funkyness with micromanagement.

So although NIN is in a happy place, its prime was during STB in my opinion.

Play ability wise SAM feels really good, BLM apparently feels really good ( i dont play BLM at all tho so i dont know for sure, but everyone seems happy with how its rotation functions.) but honestly when has BLM ever felt bad except very briefly during some off patches for it.

Overall thus if I had to pick one job to call in its prime itd be SAM. cause it feels good, it plays good, its understandable but complex enough to enjoy, it has options, and it is the highest dps contribution right now of the melee.