my thoughts on how to make tank jobs more engaging

[bundythenoob]

I feel as if I should add a few things to the thread before continuing. there were a few anecdotes i had to delete due to post limit, but maybe it would have been better to keep them and just spread the posts out more.

I'm well aware that current DRK is nowhere near as engaging as STB or HW DRK, but I am also well aware that there is a niche of people out there who really like the current direction of DRK.

as stated earlier, I do not mind some of the homogenisation as much as other do, due to it helping to lower the learning curve as well as helping new players to transfer some of their fundamental tanking skills across the 4 jobs. each tank job having streamlined cooldowns, a burst system for aligning with their teams raid buffs, and each tank having 2 aoe combos and a gap closer feels good for new players, but having the gameplay identity robbed from them does not feel good for us older players, and does not help differentiate them.

the reason I proposed these changes is because I feel that the current DRK has the POTENTIAL to become more complex and bring back the old identity, while still maintaining the shell that some newer players may have come to love. I feel that whining about old DRK will not get as much accomplished, nor will the new DRK players enjoy that overhaul of an experience. I would rather Square take this new DRK and move forward with it, than just ignore the feedback of their new build in favor for the older build, despite it being more complex and rewarding

Dark Arts coming back as a proc was a step in a decent direction for the streamlining and balance, but i feel that it was gutted as opposed to repurposed, hence why I suggested it not be brought back till lv 70, when the player has had time to get used to their kit and how it flows. this would only further add to the smoothness of the learning curve, and it would solidify its power and decision making, key cornerstones of old DRK gameplay

as for the tank damage thing, I do believe that changing the actions allowed on DRK would overall buff its damage output, but that it would be a more natural change to damage output as opposed to fixing some numbers. my goal however is that this new DRK damage output should be used as the standard for buffing the other tanks damage output, whether it be via potency buffs or making actions available for usage more often. clutch moments when a healer is down, or being able to solo a pack of enemies in the overworld used to feel really great in STB, and that feeling is no longer there due to the curtailed dmg of tanking jobs

don't get me wrong, I'd love nothing more than to play STB DRK all over again, but there is also a new generation of fanbase whose feelings must be taken into account, and to rob them of their love of the new DRK would be just as big of an injustice to them as robbing us of old DRK, which would not feel good for either the new players or the devs.

[HeulGDarian]

Can we just have pld be the safe beginners job that teaches the drill and have the rest of them be imaginative, fun, engaging ,deep and more complicated?

[shao32]

snip

you can bypass the post limit by editing your post and make it as long as you want ^^

while undertandable i don't share you point of view, let's say they rework DRK again and bring it back to the veterans like us the gameplay we use to love again, will be the new players being dammed for it? not really, why? bcs the current gameplay is still present on WAR by a large margin and PLD in some degree too, if players just loved unga-bunga they have other jobs to fullfill his gameplay preferences, or just heavy burst type of job or braindead MP management they still have PLD they just have to move to them and will enjoy it, glamour can do the rest. not every job needs to be braindead level of accesibility for new players specially consider not all of them start at lvl 1.

The point to have 4 diferent tanks is to have 4 diferent ways to play the role and open a more diverse gameplay experience with diferent ways of engagement, if we have all tanks working the same with little no variance and worse, losing what veterans love when they use to be 3 way diferent jobs from each other it's a bad way to do things and kills the purpose of adding new jobs, thats why i belive DRK have no future with the current build, it will be forever a WAR that can do this or this like now, a WAR that have magical shintens.

homogenisation it's good to a certain point, when every job start to being the same with a diferent skin or minimun gameplay diferences you know they are just doing to much and thats bad.

[ReiMakoto]

God, I hated stance dancing.
It was just a vehicle for other people to tell you how to do your job and peer pressure new tanks (like me) into dropping their stance to DPS more.
I'm glad it's gone and I agree we don't need it back.

Well not all peer pressure is bad. If you were sat in stance for more than a few gcds/ aggro resets you were actively hurting the party. Don't get me wrong I prefer the stance changes, but being upset that other people "tell you how to do your job" sounds pretty toxic if they give you accurate advice.

[aodhan_ofinnegain]

Can we just have pld be the safe beginners job that teaches the drill and have the rest of them be imaginative, fun, engaging ,deep and more complicated?

So Paladin is in a really good place and has been well designed and has great optimization capabilities fight by fight but you want to tear all that down because some misplaced idea that it needs to be a beginner job lacking in "imaginative, fun, engaging ,deep and more complicated" gameplay, yet it already does provide sufficient knowledge to beginners about tanking and still capable of a lot of optimization at end game, it doesn't have to be an either or choice, all tanks should be able to allow entry into tanking and have a skill ceiling.

[ItMe]

Well not all peer pressure is bad. If you were sat in stance for more than a few gcds/ aggro resets you were actively hurting the party. Don't get me wrong I prefer the stance changes, but being upset that other people "tell you how to do your job" sounds pretty toxic if they give you accurate advice.

I hurt the party more by dying and leading to wipes lol.
DPSing slower because I was a new tank trying to get my bearings is not "hurting the party" by any stretch.
Doesn't matter if that's how you play optimally if the player isn't ready for those things.

[Lucy_Pyre]

I definitely feel like I'm in the minority for being happy about the stance/aggro changes in ShB (aside from not being able to target-kill DPS with Shirk anymore, SE pls). Losing a flat 20% of my damage output just to not get obliterated by a tankbuster is, frankly, stupid. I much prefer having the mitigation baked into the new passive and not having to give up some mitigation for damage or vice versa just for existing.

[Reinhardt_Azureheim]

I definitely feel like I'm in the minority for being happy about the stance/aggro changes in ShB (aside from not being able to target-kill DPS with Shirk anymore, SE pls). Losing a flat 20% of my damage output just to not get obliterated by a tankbuster is, frankly, stupid. I much prefer having the mitigation baked into the new passive and not having to give up some mitigation for damage or vice versa just for existing.

Hate to break it to you, but Shadowbringers' busters on tanks are hitting as hard (relatively) as busters in Stormblood raids without tank stance on. All the Tank Trait does is provide the old tankstance benefit for Lv70 and below content; for SHB content the damage is taking the trait into account and is scaled like being in DPS stance in SB.

[Duskane]

really Dark and Warrior are the problems here lacking in identity and just over all uninteresting job design.
with Paladin its in a good spot atm but still suffers from some questionable job design in its defensive and utility kit.

[Quor]

Tanks are also however being out damaged by healers from the 90th percentile and up. Purely subjectively I think tanks output should be buffed even if that meant making dps checks tighter, as with emnity being gone along with any damage tradeoff mechanics, tanks focus nowadays is almost purely on optimising dps, yet they are not as rewarded for doing so.

I don't get this obsession people have with healers doing more damage than tanks and that somehow being a bad thing.

More to the point, the 90th percentile is not where you want to balance anything around. Added to that is the fact that at this point in time, 90th percentile (hell, 80th+ probably at this point) stuff is so stupidly skewed on FFlogs thanks to parse parties that it in no way reflects a real situation. The absolute last thing this game needs is to further reduce any job identity differences and homogenize things more than they already are. Advocating for tanks as "blue dps" isn't the way to go; people should be advocating for more tank-centric things to be included in game, both on the tanks themselves as well as in the encounters.