Healers who rescue pull tanks into mobs.

[Shalan]

I said it makes the tanks life harder, which is true. The fact that it can be handled without too much issue is irrelevant; DPS pulling still causes additional, unnecessary problems for the tank to deal with.

If the healer tells me they can handle big pulls I will. If they don't say anything I assume they can't.

Bad Healers exist, so tanks can't assume every healer is good. If the healer can handle big pulls he needs to say something.

I'll agree that having to pick up mobs makes the tank's life a little harder. But with how brain-dead the role is now that harder is basically nothing at all. It'd be like saying that 100.02 is higher than 100.01, yeah it's higher, but holy **** is that a small amount to go up. If it's so much harder that you're having issues, pick a different role. Tanking isn't for you. Everyone has to adapt to the situation even if it makes their role harder, you aren't special because you're the tank.

And again, the onus should be on you to ask for smaller pulls, as you're the outlier here by *far.*
Don't just assume off the bat. You've been championing people asking first as a courtesy, so why don't you hold yourself to that standard first rather than be a hypocrite?

[Goji1639]

I'll agree that having to pick up mobs makes the tank's life a little harder. But with how brain-dead the role is now that harder is basically nothing at all. It'd be like saying that 100.02 is higher than 100.01, yeah it's higher, but holy **** is that a small amount to go up. If it's so much harder that you're having issues, pick a different role. Tanking isn't for you. Everyone has to adapt to the situation even if it makes their role harder, you aren't special because you're the tank.

And again, the onus should be on you to ask for smaller pulls, as you're the outlier here by *far.*
Don't just assume off the bat. You've been championing people asking first as a courtesy, so why don't you hold yourself to that standard first rather than be a hypocrite?

First, I'm not really the outlier. I've leveled multiple classes, including 2 healers and a handful of DPS, and wall to wall pulls are extremely rare all the way up until expert roulettes.

Second, even if I was the outlier, that's not how this kind of thing works. You don't default to the most difficult possible approach when you don't know the capabilities of the group you're in. That's irrational.

Third, I've noticed that when asking healers if they can handle big pulls they'll usually say yes when put on the spot, regardless of whether it's actually true.

The healer is the xfactor, so the healer is the one that needs to convince people he's up to it. That's just how the dynamic plays out. If you're confident then speak up.

[Shalan]

Having leveled multiple classes of all roles myself, I can tell you they're extremely common. And while it is the most difficult possible approach, it's still so easy that it's not actually difficult. Because pulling small is so easy a DPS can do it, anything above that is a massive leap in difficulty even if it's still brain dead.

For the tank, it doesn't require anything more than what they already do, gathering aggro, cycling CDs, and facing mobs away from the party. Hell, half the time they don't even do the CD or facing mobs away part, just gathering aggro. For the healer it simply requires fore planning and a full use of the tool kit. By the point they've hit lvl 60 content they should already be doing this and be comfortable doing it. If they aren't comfortable doing it, tough shit.

They should have picked up those skillsets earlier by natural progression in the game, and if they haven't let the adversity and difficulty of harder content help shape them up to where they get better. People aren't fragile, they're antifragile, they grow stronger by experiencing, learning, and strengthening from shocks and stressors to their systems. I know if I didn't have tanks that pushed my skills in earlier in my healing career I wouldn't be able to heal the way I can today. If you keep coddling them out of fear, they'll never learn and we'll continue seeing a swarm of shitty healers at 60+ content.

[Goji1639]

I'm not against big pulls, but I'm also not going to force them by default out of some misguided sense that I need to "prepare and teach everyone." If anyone wants me to do anything specific they can ask, but otherwise I'll pull based on how much I feel like gambling on the healers talent on any given day.

[Awha]

End of the day this is an issue of control, I get it no one wants to give up control but I mean in the strictest sense of the word yes it makes things more difficult if a dps or healer pull more. Though come on the tanking loop does not change much outside maybe having to spend an extra gcd or two gathering the mobs.

I mean if someone pulls mobs and runs away from the tank or goes so far ahead that the tank or healer could not keep up then it is understandable that they die. Begs the question as to why the group was so far apart in the first place but that is another issue.

Sure everyone has a different experience, but that experience no matter what does not mean if a player does something you do not approve of you watch and let them die. The issue at hand is perform your role and address the issue after the pull be it a wipe or not. Watching or trying let someone die because you want to teach them a lesson is silly since letting someone die or not performing your role objectively makes the run more difficult, because you are down one person.

So at that point you are making the run more difficult something you appear to be against because you of reasons.

Overall might be due to the game I came from i have done wall to wall pulls since I was level 15. W key all the way. I have gone out in a blaze of glory though normally the groups were fine with it and if they were not and we wiped they would tell me to take my ADD meds and slow down. Though overall based off my experience wall to wall has always been the standard and this was before the tank aoe and aggro changes. So I mean now we have no excuse to pull large cause if not why else are we present?

[Goji1639]

Aggro isn't the issue with big pulls; at least for me it isn't. The issue is whether or not the healer can keep up. If the healer doesn't offer that information then assuming he can't is less frustrating than assuming he can and being wrong.

It's just common sense. If you're playing a game with someone, and have no idea whether or not they're any good, you don't immediately throw them onto the hardest difficulty. That will just be annoying for everyone.

Healers are the crux of big pulls, and they could make this a lot simpler by just stating their capabilities from the start. I'm not sure why that suggestion is generally met with so much refusal here.

[Packetdancer]

Honestly, so many people ignore party chat that if I find a tank pulling small I will often just run slightly ahead of them and jump up and down a few times (while still staying in Holy range if playing WHM because, y'know, Holy spam). This usually communicates "I can heal this! Let's grab more!" fairly effectively. And if they stick with small pulls, I figure it may be because they don't feel comfortable with big pulls and then, well, that's fine.

Pull size is, to my mind, an agreement between tank and healer and neither should unilaterally dictate it for the other.

[Veis_Alveare]

Healers are the crux of big pulls, and they could make this a lot simpler by just stating their capabilities from the start. I'm not sure why that suggestion is generally met with so much refusal here.

No one has an issue with a healer stating what they're capable of at the start of a dungeon. It's fine. It may not change the group's mind but no harm is done by communicating. The problem people have with you stems from your misguided belief that the outlier mentality is the one in which you do at minimum double pulls if not more - that's just the norm. We have big CDs and potent heals, powerful AoE abilities that clear out trash fast and a bunch of content that many players have seen a hundred times so they're only there for the carrot on the stick. The natural conclusion is to use our fancy tools to make this thing happen quickly.

None of this is complicated, I don't understand what's not getting through.

[Goji1639]

No one has an issue with a healer stating what they're capable of at the start of a dungeon. It's fine. It may not change the group's mind but no harm is done by communicating. The problem people have with you stems from your misguided belief that the outlier mentality is the one in which you do at minimum double pulls if not more - that's just the norm. We have big CDs and potent heals, powerful AoE abilities that clear out trash fast and a bunch of content that many players have seen a hundred times so they're only there for the carrot on the stick. The natural conclusion is to use our fancy tools to make this thing happen quickly.

None of this is complicated, I don't understand what's not getting through.

Again, I've leveled up every role and wall to wall isn't even remotely common until expert roulettes. I think we're operating on very different interpretations of what the word outlier means.

Also, defaulting to the most difficult strategy when you don't know your groups capabilities is complete nonsense. Having the tools to handle mass pulls doesn't mean those tools will be used well, or at all. The healer is the most important factor, so if the Healer wants the group to adopt the most difficult strategy then he needs to be the one to reassure the group he can handle it. It's just common sense.

[Veis_Alveare]

Again, I've leveled up every role and wall to wall isn't even remotely common until expert roulettes. I think we're operating on very different interpretations of what the word outlier means.

Also, defaulting to the most difficult strategy when you don't know your groups capabilities is complete nonsense. Having the tools to handle mass pulls doesn't mean those tools will be used well, or at all. The healer is the most important factor, so if the Healer wants the group to adopt the most difficult strategy then he needs to be the one to reassure the group he can handle it. It's just common sense.

I dunno what to tell you. Maybe Crystal really is that bad? I don't see people baby pulling generally and those that I do encounter usually respond well to a little nudge in the right direction.

Common sense is getting through the instance quickly. There are a ton of reasons a healer might not be able to respond to a request asking about pull size much less post their own. Have you ever tried to type out a sentence using a ps4 controller? Every dungeon shouldn't be set to a snail's pace just because 1/4 of the group hasn't explicitly consented to not RP-walk through the whole map.

I guarantee you've wasted more time with this than I have. Do I occasionally see a wipe? Sure, but they're rare enough I can't recall the last one in a dungeon. People can put on their bigboi pants, you just need to provide the opportunity to do so.