It's time (Option to Hide other players Glamour)

[Awha]

The whole thing. It's weird. I know there are creeps online whenever they here a girl's voice on the internet, but some of these people go really far. Frankly, those guys are really annoying. Anyway I was getting at how there are people who act like their character is actually an extension of themselves, like second life. Treat the game like it's reality. Sure, I have had some guild drama in the past, and I am a person who likes to argue for arguing's sake, and I usually just say what's on my mind at that very second, but there's a line there. People need to seperate the game from real life. They are not one and the same.

If people were able to do that I suspect a lot of video game drama between players would cease to exist.

What you said is one of the reasons I had a fall out with a friend, his girlfriend at the time was part of a prominent rp guild in tor, doing warzone with them one night she was healing add asked why people were focusing her, I mentioned it was because she was thicc, and people be thirsty (body type 4 for females had some massive thighs) after that he started to ghost me, and when I asked he told me I made her feel uncomfortable with my comment about her character because she IRL suffered from body shamming issues.

In my personal opinion reason some people take offense is because they do what this girl did and project aspects of their own self into their character and thus gain a level of attachment that lends them to getting hurt based on comments about the character especially when said comments remidn them of personal issues they face IRL. I do not understand it either, and to this day that whole interaction bugs me out, what can you do.

[Penthea]

Anyway I was getting at how there are people who act like their character is actually an extension of themselves, like second life. Treat the game like it's reality.

Well real people with real feelings are behind every player character. Just because it's a game doesn't make the interactions between people any less real than interactions elsewhere. I met my boyfriend in this game, and we're far from the only couple I know of who have met in through online gaming. Some I know ended up getting married and having children.

For some people the game is the only place they can truly feel like themselves. I don't just mean those part of the LGBTQ group. People with bad health often find that gaming is the only way they can explore a place outside their home, make human connections without their health getting in the way, and not have to worry about being judged or asked intrusive questions about their health or employment status.

For some people games allow them to be themselves even more than the circumstances of offline life allow them.

Every character is an extension of the player to some degree. Everything about how a character looks does say something about the player. Their glam and dye choices hint at what they find aesthetically pleasing. Their character name could be referencing a character from other media, and that hints at the sort of stories they enjoy. If their name is silly or funny you know this is a person who likes to have a laugh. If their name is lore appropriate but not from the presets the game suggests in character creation, you know they care about lore at least a little. If a person's glam has current tier high-end savage or ultimate savage gear early in the tier you quickly know this is a player who enjoys a challenge. I could go on for a while.

Even in games like Overwatch or LoL, where you don't have the freedom of character creation that mmorpgs typically have and instead have preset character skins, can hint at what a player finds aesthetically pleasing, and their handle again can say something about them.

Any game that allows players some manner of visual customisation does give hints to other players as to what sort of person the player behind the character is.

Of course it's up to everyone how much they feel a character is an extension of themselves, but to imply that it is somehow weird to consider a character to represent something about a person means denying that choices players make about how they look and the name they choose to be known by are personal choices that only they could make.

Some players have suggested that if glam removal comes to the game, then a person using it should have some sort of visual tag attached to them so that others know they have hidden glams. If that comes to the game even that tag would say something about that player, as would the absence of the tag.

I feel that glam removal is a sensitive topic because some people are not comfortable with the idea that another person can remove things they feel define themselves a lot. It would especially sting if a player's character has visual aspects of themselves that society would normally shun them for. It can make a person feel that not even in games do they have the freedom to be themselves without someone denying that people like them do or should be permitted to exist.

[Awha]

Well real people with real feelings are behind every player character. Just because it's a game doesn't make the interactions between people any less real than interactions elsewhere. I met my boyfriend in this game, and we're far from the only couple I know of who have met in through online gaming. Some I know ended up getting married and having children.

For some people the game is the only place they can truly feel like themselves. I don't just mean those part of the LGBTQ group. People with bad health often find that gaming is the only way they can explore a place outside their home, make human connections without their health getting in the way, and not have to worry about being judged or asked intrusive questions about their health or employment status.

For some people games allow them to be themselves even more than the circumstances of offline life allow them.

Every character is an extension of the player to some degree. Everything about how a character looks does say something about the player. Their glam and dye choices hint at what they find aesthetically pleasing. Their character name could be referencing a character from other media, and that hints at the sort of stories they enjoy. If their name is silly or funny you know this is a person who likes to have a laugh. If their name is lore appropriate but not from the presets the game suggests in character creation, you know they care about lore at least a little. If a person's glam has current tier high-end savage or ultimate savage gear early in the tier you quickly know this is a player who enjoys a challenge. I could go on for a while.

Even in games like Overwatch or LoL, where you don't have the freedom of character creation that mmorpgs typically have and instead have preset character skins, can hint at what a player finds aesthetically pleasing, and their handle again can say something about them.

Any game that allows players some manner of visual customisation does give hints to other players as to what sort of person the player behind the character is.

Of course it's up to everyone how much they feel a character is an extension of themselves, but to imply that it is somehow weird to consider a character to represent something about a person means denying that choices players make about how they look and the name they choose to be known by are personal choices that only they could make.

Some players have suggested that if glam removal comes to the game, then a person using it should have some sort of visual tag attached to them so that others know they have hidden glams. If that comes to the game even that tag would say something about that player, as would the absence of the tag.

I feel that glam removal is a sensitive topic because some people are not comfortable with the idea that another person can remove things they feel define themselves a lot. It would especially sting if a player's character has visual aspects of themselves that society would normally shun them for. It can make a person feel that not even in games do they have the freedom to be themselves without someone denying that people like them do or should be permitted to exist.

I do see where you are coming from, but isn't that creating a safe space within the game? People were against the very notion about creating a safe space based around so called "intolerance" that was based around a assumption as to why someone would like such a feature. To a degree couldn't everything you mentioned also apply to the other side? Maybe due to how they were raised they do not like seeing revealing clothing could be anything, and they use the game as an escape from the real world. It seems people are putting more importance on one sides reasons for escape or enjoyment then the other for what amounts to basically the samething just a different side of the same coin.

[Penthea]

Edit, I do see where you are coming from, but isn't that creating a safe space within the game? People were against the very notion about creating a safe space based around so called "intolerance" that was based around a assumption as to why someone would like such a feature.

Again I point to the vast difference between making your own character a safe space to fit your vision of only who you want to be, and making the entire game a safe space to fit your vision of how you think everyone should be.

Having control over how you present yourself is one thing. Having control over how everyone around you does is a totally different matter. I don't think players have a right to remove someone's right to present themselves in whatever way they wish. Not even if it's just on their screen. I understand some people dislike what they consider to be lore breaking outfits, but some people in this thread have admitted that their problem lies with things like a man in a dress...and there's nothing lore breaking about a person in a dress. Removing someone else's glam is literally saying "I don't think a player that looks like you should be allowed to exist."

The vision of how the game looks belongs to the devs, not the players. The players merely have presets they can choose from to create their characters, and those presets are part of the dev's vision for the game.

And again I point to how Final Fantasy games have a very long history of outlandish outfits, even on main characters. Whether some people like it or not, strange outfits are part of the Final Fantasy aesthetic.

If people want to have control over how others appear, you can make a fc with rules stating a dress code. But if someone isn't in your fc frankly how they look is not your business nor is it something you have a right to change because they're not part of a group you have any control over.

[Ivellior]

I feel that glam removal is a sensitive topic because some people are not comfortable with the idea that another person can remove things they feel define themselves a lot. It would especially sting if a player's character has visual aspects of themselves that society would normally shun them for. It can make a person feel that not even in games do they have the freedom to be themselves without someone denying that people like them do or should be permitted to exist.

So because they want to protect their feelings they think it's justified to insult and prevent others from asking a prefectly reasonable suggestion? A suggestion, that, mind you, will have absolutely no side effect on the game and player's experience whatsoever. It's exactly the same as hiding the battle effects of other people. It's entirely optional, it doesn't not affect other people's experience and if you don't publicaly announce it noone will even know about it. And most importantly 99% of people don't give a damn.

Having the developers spend time on making stuff like dresses wearable by males, a feature that 99.9% of the population will not use, is somehow fine and applauded, while the the same time those very same people that asked for the dresses are waging such a huge campaign against this request, which will probably be used by much more people and that doesn't affect them in any way, is the very definition of double standards and forcing your values down the throat of other people.

Let's be honest, most people don't like to watch a Metallic Yellow Dyed Frog Suit which looks like a bloody radioactive lamp, a chocobo suit with a pig head that looks like it come out of failed chimera experiment (each with different metalic colours to boot), or 2m tall man tiger running in a wedding dress like a crappy 80s comedy character. It's grating to the eyes, gamebreaking and outright annoying. People are kind enough (or fearful to be banned) and don't tell you about it in game, but that doesn't mean it's not a problem for them.

Just like the people who have been asking for gender swapped cloathing (they asked loud enough and got it, good for them), people also have the right to ask for a hiding glamour feature. They are also paying customers and have as much right to asking for improvements as any other person. Calling them bigots and being so vehemently against it is disingenuous at best and just plain out enforcing you left wing beliefs at worst.

And finally, if people are so desperate to be seen in obnoxious cloathing, they can still do it. Just wear the normal cloathes and hang out in the town/house. At least it will spare the people in duty finder that have no option of avoid the shitty glamours.

[Penthea]

And finally, if people are so desperate to be seen in obnoxious cloathing, they can still do it. Just wear the normal cloathes and hang out in the town/house. At least it will spare the people in duty finder that have no option of avoid the shitty glamours.

Why should a person dress themselves in order to please someone else? Also there is absolutely no guarantee that any glam you create is something everyone would like, even if it is lore appropriate.

I'm sure if glam removal comes to the game some people would complain that how players look without glams isn't something they find pleasing to the eye. Many people who support glam removal have different ideas as to how players should look without glams. Personal taste is frankly way too subjective for any dev team to create a solution that would equally please everyone. But at the very least the devs can create the game in such a way that players can tailor their own characters to their own taste.

[Ivellior]

Why should a person dress themselves in order to please someone else? Also there is absolutely no guarantee that any glam you create is something everyone would like, even if it is lore appropriate.

I never said, people can wear whatever they want.

I'm sure if glam removal comes to the game some people would complain that how players look without glams isn't something they find pleasing to the eye. Many people who support glam removal have different ideas as to how players should look without glams. Personal taste is frankly way too subjective for any dev team to create a solution that would equally please everyone. But at the very least the devs can create the game in such a way that players can tailor their own characters to their own taste.

I'm sorry to say, but you are really grasping at straws here. Glamour removal is just glamour removal. That is what the OP asked. An option/toggle just like the "Hide other people battle effects". I have not seen anyone complain about the hide battle effects option. Because it is just that. If you like glamours it's on by default. Don't like glamours? Just turn them off. Simple as that. It doesn't have to be complicated.

At most it should be as complicated as the hide battle effects option (party/alliance/others, maybe friends).

People will always have different opinions on implementation and that's fine. What is not fine is attacking people and calling them bigots (not that has any meaning nowdays on the internet, it's more like an affirmation that you are a normal person than an insult) for asking for a perfect reasonable request just because you don't like it or because it doesn't fit your agenda.

If you have a reasonable of why it shouldn't be added you can also add it but you can't complain if people call you out on it if doesn't seem reasonable. For example you just said that they shouldn't add it because some people in the comments have different opinions on how it should be implemented, while the vast majority in support of the feature just want a toggle to turn off glamours. It doesn't make sense as a reason for not adding the feature.

[Awha]

Again I point to the vast difference between making your own character a safe space to fit your vision of only who you want to be, and making the entire game a safe space to fit your vision of how you think everyone should be.

Having control over how you present yourself is one thing. Having control over how everyone around you does is a totally different matter. I don't think players have a right to remove someone's right to present themselves in whatever way they wish. Not even if it's just on their screen. I understand some people dislike what they consider to be lore breaking outfits, but some people in this thread have admitted that their problem lies with things like a man in a dress...and there's nothing lore breaking about a person in a dress. Removing someone else's glam is literally saying "I don't think a player that looks like you should be allowed to exist."

The vision of how the game looks belongs to the devs, not the players. The players merely have presets they can choose from to create their characters, and those presets are part of the dev's vision for the game.

And again I point to how Final Fantasy games have a very long history of outlandish outfits, even on main characters. Whether some people like it or not, strange outfits are part of the Final Fantasy aesthetic.

If people want to have control over how others appear, you can make a fc with rules stating a dress code. But if someone isn't in your fc frankly how they look is not your business nor is it something you have a right to change because they're not part of a group you have any control over.

Sorry I have a hard time covaying my thoughts at times, what I am trying to say is that the reason you find if wrong is solely based off your own personal bias, just as the reason I find it okay is based off my own personal bias. If both views are based around a personal bias what happens when we remove said bias and look at the idea at the core level.

Way I see at the core level it boils down to both sides wishing to preserve elements that they find benfit their own personal expereince within the game world. Reason I say remove the bias because I for one do not feel comfortable throwing an idea under the bus over a few bad apples, nor do I feel if someone should have to enagage or see my choices in the same game world like we may have to in the real world. The game world has the option to provide us with tools that allow us to alter the space to a degree that allows us to create our own unique heaven so to speak. I do not think any person should at the core be upset over that, because in the end while we do come to the game for different reasons we do share the space, and I rather someone have the option to turn my frog suit off for whatever reason instead them having to either ask me to change (which has happened) go with it and maybe have a less enjoyable experience with the game simply because they had to choose to deal or leave. In other cases people would not see telling someone to leave the game or deal with it as a valid reason if the shoe was on the other foot, why is that the case here.

Overall I get people will never agree and I get that, that is why I try to look at the idea past that lens of my personal reasons for wanting it verse others, and just look at it from the idea itself and would it allow players more control over their own personal experience without having to cause issues with other players. This is why I see akin to the langague filter feature. Instead of having some quote the ToS and complain about being dropping f bombs, they could simply turn on the fliter and be done with the issue. Granted people do bypass the filter and you can still be reported for it, overall though I think it is safe to assume that feature has improved the general experience of many overall, and very well could have reduced the amount of conflicts amongest players in regard to langague issues. Since I am sure people do get defense if they are told to please not curse. Hope what I am saying makes sense, I respect your view, and I am not trying to change your mind as to what you feel is right or wrong, I am simply trying to see if we can find a common middle ground if we remove our own personal bias towards the idea and find a happy meadim. This is towards everyone.

[Penthea]

An option/toggle just like the "Hide other people battle effects". I have not seen anyone complain about the hide battle effects option.

Being able to turn down battle effects is to aid gaming rig performance and to make it easier for players to spot things in combat that could kill them. A glam can't obstruct your vision in combat to the point that it could get you killed.

And if your gaming rig needs glam removal to perform better...honestly that wouldn't be enough to improve things. Battle effects are significantly more taxing on hardware than clothing. I have a great pc and sometimes in certain fights my fps can drop (usually in a boss's ultimate attack) but on days when a new patch comes out and the entire server is sitting on top of msq npcs my performance doesn't drop in any noticeable way.

If your rig has difficulty performing well due to glams, then it would suffer tremendously in combat even with battle effects low.

EDIT: as for audio options, again players can turn down the music and increase the audio of combat so they can hear audio cues for boss abilities better.

[Barachim]

The vision of how the game looks belongs to the devs, not the players. The players merely have presets they can choose from to create their characters, and those presets are part of the dev's vision for the game.

Are you repeating that in every major Thread that demands that devs remove genderlocks? Or is now the only time you suddenly care about the dev's vision?