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  1. #41
    Player
    Sasarayu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    35
    Character
    Sasarayu Wawarayu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    FFXIV has a very high floor for an MMO but a medium height ceiling while WoW has one of the lowest floors and in its more advanced incarnations a high skill ceiling.

    The typical FFXIV mentality capitalizes on the high floor. Another characteristic of the FFXIV community is how it has adopted Confucianism and admittedly some of this is actually built into the game itself, the mentor system is one example, but culturally I would say it's probably interpreted differently between Japan and the west with western players more having a stereotypical idea of old feudal class hierarchies.

    A lot of players who have played mostly WoW but tried FFXIV have found themselves at the lower end of this social order and realized they are expected to "know their place" in FFXIV which is from a social community perspective something not really seen in the today more openly competitive and hybrid e-sport WoW for some 13+ years.

    It's safe to say FFXIV players don't like unpredictability and a lot of systems from other games (I play mainly WoW) would not work in FFXIV from a pure gameplay PoV either. If you for example could talent your SMN to get reduced cooldown on firebird, random Bahamut Trance proccing throughout the fight and added splash damage to your Ruin 3 it would make the scripted encounters unplayable since FFXIV is all about aligning a predetermined rotation with a predetermined script and abhors any deviation.

    Actually deviation and individuality is frowned upon by FFXIV both gameplay-wise as well as socially and this conformism is at the end of the day the true trademark of FFXIV. Everyone must be the same and everyone must know their place. Outside of housing and glam you don't do things creatively, instead you obey. This applies to both game mechanics and social structures within the community.

    The high entrance floor for PvE, Confucian mentality and emphasis on mathematic ability combined creates an atmosphere of exceptionalism. This is how the idea of FFXIV as the most sophisticated MMO, with other MMOs as "barbarian", has emerged in the west.

    As someone who find it difficult to accept constant patronizing, gatekeeping and soft toxicity I have ended up mostly alone in FFXIV while in WoW I have both friends and raid group. To me which game has the "better model" is quite clear but I guess FFXIV also appeals to me in some way since I'm still subbed and enjoy mostly the housing and crafting. Something I can do alone without others.

    That being said, WoW these days don't even have a sense of community at all. FFXIV more resembles the small town atmosphere of classic WoW 15 years ago where everyone knew everyone on a server and I guess this is for good and bad.
    (2)
    Last edited by Sasarayu; 02-25-2020 at 04:59 PM.

  2. #42
    Player
    Omedon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2013
    Posts
    402
    Character
    Sindyr Ashreynason
    World
    Mateus
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasarayu View Post
    SNIP
    One of the first things I asked before re-installing FFXIV over 2 months ago for the first time since early ARR was "how self sufficient is the FFXIV player these days?" Between trusts (and squadron) and the crafting system, I was sold... because yes, I'm so deeply a WoW person that the idea of "needing the community" is itself anathema to me. That low floor in WoW is broadly and comfortably catered to, and I am the audience that speaks to. While I have risen to the challenges of the higher floor in FFXIV, I have zeeheeero desire to do that sort of self-betterment and challenging of myself on anyone else's time, especially in this community, for all the reasons you've mentioned.

    I like the concept of the FFXIV community, I like watching and listening and just seeing it happen around me, but I will never commit to this game enough to care about engaging or climbing it on a gameplay front. I rarely tank for live players, and I was a DPS player until I had trusts. My very subscription is a sort of a gauntlet thrown to FFXIV's game design: "how far will you let me get on my standards of accessibility before we don't align and I unsub?" As I've stated in another thread, role quests were almost where I got off the bus, but not quite. I'm still enjoying myself, and while I stand paused upping my ilvl to tackle the newest dungeon added with 5.2, I hope to make it to the end of shadowbringers and beyond!
    (0)

  3. #43
    Player
    Vahlnir's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Tent In the Middle of Nowhere
    Posts
    9,647
    Character
    Elan Centauri
    World
    Diabolos
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 100
    I think the main difference between WoW and FF XIV is that the devs of WoW are sort of...apathetic. And things like the corrupted gear system make me feel that they are also a bit spiteful since WoW has seen better days and people keep raining on Blizzard's cash grabbing parade. Basically they are giving players powerful gear with even more powerful enchantments. But this gear has and will kill player characters on a pretty regular basis. If something like this were to happen here...good lord. I'm not saying FF XIV's gearing system is perfect but it's still better than the alternative WoW presents its players 95% of the time.
    (1)
    Quote Originally Posted by Naoki_Yoshida View Post
    Personal Housing
    While I cannot give a specific date on when personal housing will be implemented, I can say that prices will be completely separate from free company housing, and, naturally, far more affordable.

  4. #44
    Player
    Lubu_Mykono's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Location
    Radz-At-Han
    Posts
    320
    Character
    Lubu Mykono
    World
    Phantom
    Main Class
    Dark Knight Lv 90
    What would be completely anathema? Well meaning, purposeful, rewarding and balanced PvP.
    (2)

  5. #45
    Player
    Edax's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2018
    Location
    Shirogane, W15 P60
    Posts
    2,002
    Character
    Edax Royeaux
    World
    Leviathan
    Main Class
    Samurai Lv 90
    Quote Originally Posted by Sasarayu View Post
    The typical FFXIV mentality capitalizes on the high floor. Another characteristic of the FFXIV community is how it has adopted Confucianism and admittedly some of this is actually built into the game itself, the mentor system is one example, but culturally I would say it's probably interpreted differently between Japan and the west with western players more having a stereotypical idea of old feudal class hierarchies.

    A lot of players who have played mostly WoW but tried FFXIV have found themselves at the lower end of this social order and realized they are expected to "know their place" in FFXIV which is from a social community perspective something not really seen in the today more openly competitive and hybrid e-sport WoW for some 13+ years.

    The high entrance floor for PvE, Confucian mentality and emphasis on mathematic ability combined creates an atmosphere of exceptionalism. This is how the idea of FFXIV as the most sophisticated MMO, with other MMOs as "barbarian", has emerged in the west.
    Uhh what? Confucism is a patriarchal ideology with a with particular emphasis on the importance of the family, none of which is in FFXIV. If anything, FFXIV flies in the face of that because being a woman means little in the game but it means everything under Confucism. In fact, there's little if any family order in FFXIV even in the story, the vast majority of characters are Bachelors or Bachelorette.

    Unlike the rigid class system of WoW, FFXIV offer total freedom when it comes to jobs, you can be anything which would be the total anathema to Confucianism and "knowing your place". There was barely any social mobility under Confucianism.

    Anarchy better describes FFXIV:

    an·ar·chy
    /ˈanərkē/

    noun: anarchy
    absence of government and absolute freedom of the individual, regarded as a political ideal.



    Quote Originally Posted by Sasarayu View Post
    Actually deviation and individuality is frowned upon by FFXIV both gameplay-wise as well as socially and this conformism is at the end of the day the true trademark of FFXIV. Everyone must be the same and everyone must know their place. Outside of housing and glam you don't do things creatively, instead you obey. This applies to both game mechanics and social structures within the community.
    Individuality if emphasized in this game, not frowned upon. Glamour is the endgame, none of which supports conformity. The game mechanics are not about "obeying", they emphasis situational awareness, not some chain of command or some social hierarchy. Your average duty doesn't even involved any words being exchanged most of the time.
    (1)
    Last edited by Edax; 02-25-2020 at 05:42 PM.

  6. #46
    Player
    Stanelis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Posts
    929
    Character
    Irvy Ryath
    World
    Ragnarok
    Main Class
    Lancer Lv 85
    Quote Originally Posted by Omedon View Post
    Through some... heated discussions and some friendly ones I've come to get a feel for the particular attitude of the community FFXIv attracts, and I don't say that to be snarky, I actually like you people.

    That said, I maintain at least one "foot" in WoW at all times, and I went back this past weekend to hang out with some friends. While doing so I explained WoW's most recent patch's core feature, gear corruption, to one of said friends, and in doing so I realized "oh my god, this would get universally dumped on in FFXIV!"

    Gear corruption is a random possibility every time you loot gear that the gear will have dark void corruption on it, a stat that is tracked on your character that the higher it gets, the more messed up things happen to you, but in trade you also get extra power and damage. There is a counter-stat called corruption resistance that you can build up slowly, that cancels out all the bad happening to you while letting you keep the extra power... but the possibility is there for players to go beyond their resistance, by a lot, and be constantly dodging extra personally-relevant mechanics that are (I believe) invisible to everyone else.

    Basically, any member of your party at any time could have 2-3 more mechanics to dodge/manage that can potentially damage/debilitate them above and beyond what's already in whatever fight you're in.

    When I consider how mechanically and culturally hard FFXIV leans into making sure everyone in your party is "vetted to be here," adding an optional layer of difficulty that individual players can opt into for the sake of extra damage, problems heaped on the healer and the rest of the party that they have no say in nor can they screen or detect it... I can't think of anything more anti-FFXIV than that haha!

    So how about you? Have you ever played another game that did something that made you think "Oh my god this would blow FFXIV's mind in the worst way" and what was it?
    Gear corruption is universally dumped on in wow too (the best corruption stats brings ridiculous level of DPS, to the point the main source of damage becomes the corruption trigger in the right circumstances).

    As for this topic, most of FFXIV's battle system and gear progression system is inspired from WOTLK wow and/or is a simplification of it (no set bonuses as an example).
    (1)
    Last edited by Stanelis; 02-25-2020 at 05:56 PM.

  7. #47
    Player
    Sasarayu's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2017
    Posts
    35
    Character
    Sasarayu Wawarayu
    World
    Odin
    Main Class
    Summoner Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by Edax View Post
    Uhh what? Confucism is a patriarchal ideology with a with particular emphasis on the importance of the family, none of which is in FFXIV. If anything, FFXIV flies in the face of that because being a woman means little in the game but it means everything under Confucism. In fact, there's little if any family order in FFXIV even in the story, the vast majority of characters are Bachelors or Bachelorette.
    There's a lot more to Confucianism than the family. The idea of the benevolent ruler and mentorship as a bond of mutual respect between the ruler and his subjects for example. The most extreme Confucian societies in history established a caste system where knowledge was forbidden to the masses simply because it was considered an affront to the ruling class for the lower to seek knowledge independently. This is reflected clearly in the FFXIV community as well where you simply don't just study up and think you know something. Your right to an opinion stands in direct relation to your social status and if you breech this unwritten rule, the way many newer players do even though they've raided for 10 years in other holy trinity MMOs, you will certainly know it.

    As for traditional female roles, how many women are there in FFXIV with the attitude "I can't fight, but I CAN make the best rice balls and Tatami and give my heart and soul to support our brave fighters at the front lines!" (SB went overboard on this) in sidequests? I lost count tbh but the Doma restoration event had at least three characters like this including the chef, the administrative girl and the elderly teacher.

    Even Yotsuyu was portraited as a weak failure for not accepting with grace and dignity the role imposed on her. She was humiliated and destroyed and in everything embodied a tragic harlot frowned upon by a chaste and virtuous society.

    Contrast this to Sylvanas, Jaina, Azshara, Moira or your average Mag'har Orc lady in WoW and it's difficult to consider FFXIV in favor of strong female roles.


    Individuality if emphasized in this game, not frowned upon. Glamour is the endgame, none of which supports conformity. The game mechanics are not about "obeying", they emphasis situational awareness, not some chain of command or some social hierarchy. Your average duty doesn't even involved any words being exchanged most of the time.
    When a mechanic forces you to stand on A or die your are forced to obey. This happens in FFXIV all the time, on all encounters. Sometimes for 10 minutes straight. I feel enslaved when doing PvE in FFXIV while in WoW I feel clever for finding little tricks and my own individual way of managing a mechanic. WoW has even made a thematic thing of the "obey or suffer" where Queen Azshara called out decrees and forced players to run around like mindless puppets obeying her every whim or face the consequences. In FFXIV this is not a gimmick for a certain raid boss but rather reality on almost every encounter. Obey, obey, obey.
    (1)
    Last edited by Sasarayu; 02-25-2020 at 06:13 PM.

  8. #48
    Player
    Shurrikhan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    12,870
    Character
    Tani Shirai
    World
    Cactuar
    Main Class
    Monk Lv 100
    Quote Originally Posted by linay View Post
    The state of play that actually sees healers healing in FFXIV?
    Does it not see them as Green DPS?

    Wanting "actual healing" may be hyperbolic, but it is nothing so new that you wouldn't know its meaning. I'm not sure why you're trying to shove semantics down her throat over what is effectively this game's best known meme.
    (3)

  9. #49
    Player
    SamRF's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2018
    Posts
    767
    Character
    Kiro Isamu
    World
    Zodiark
    Main Class
    Marauder Lv 88
    Quote Originally Posted by LolitaBansheeMeru View Post
    I honestly Wish ffxiv would use a spec system honestly...
    Unlike other mmo I feel like ffxiv is forcing us to play the way the dev team wants to enforce with the job when there so many different ways that could be played.. Long term wise playing the job becomes a brain-dead activity where you're just using the same combos, some set every time outside every now and then debugging/silencing or dodging your playing the same way from level 30 all the way to 99 way they have it.

    Thats what kills games for me and leads to me quiting off and on honestly is the game play is just repeat Rinse,dodge,Rinse, run ,dodge,rinse,change targets (really simple minded game play once u hit 30 and remember your pattern the only diffuclity is fights you don't know and then you have to learn that bosses pattern and it once again becomes simple minded. (Wouldn't hurt if they got a better Ai System)
    I'd also like a spec system honestly. Kind of makes sense that there isn't one because we have a job system and can thus switch to any job we like, but when I play an RPG I prefer to focus on 1 theme and aesthetic. If there was a spec system, you could indulge yourself in 1 theme but still enjoy different playstyles by changing your spec.
    (0)

  10. #50
    Player
    Kalise's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2018
    Posts
    1,784
    Character
    Kalise Relanah
    World
    Cerberus
    Main Class
    Gunbreaker Lv 80
    Quote Originally Posted by ElciaDeiLinus View Post
    To me, doing a dungeon is about the experience and journey- doing it quickly and efficiency is always great. But, the moment you put a timer requirement on something you create a lot of toxicity around both having the ideal gear/specs/parse to clear it, and around failing to do so in time. Because it's required to gear for raiding it is packed with players that do not want to be doing it- and there's really no better way to make a toxic environment than to fill something with people that hate doing it, who have been doing it daily for years.

    At one point, dungeons were my favourite part of WoW- now I consider them no different from grinding WQs/dailies which are the worst part of the game.
    Ahh, yeah, I remember when WoW dungeons were fun...

    Classic and TBC mostly, when not only were dungeons still "Hard" (In the sense, that you wouldn't just pull multiple packs of trash and then AoE nuke everything) but they were also experiences. Not only with the time spent travelling to the instance itself (Which in of itself was occasionally a journey on its own (Alliance going to Scarlet Monastery or Wailing Caverns... Maraudon in general...)) but also going through them and going around completing all the quests that people shared with each other.

    Also, back when you'd occasionally also see CC being used! I also remember this at the start of Cataclysm, doing PuG groups and as a Tank, co-ordinating CC based on what classes were in the party because doing a full pack of trash would be certain death... Until people cried that they were too hard and they got nerfed into zergfests...

    Challenge Mode sort of brought some of the difficulty back, but the pressure on the timer to achieve anything meant that you were still trying to multi-pull and AoE stuff if not simply quaffing Invisibility Potions to skip half the dungeon...
    (1)

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