Dark Knight - I Used To Love You

[DRKoftheAzure]

Counter attack procs are problematic to calculate and design fights for. They in many ways force jobs with those abilities into the MT position or force the OT to take unnecessary damage to trigger them. Pretty much all counterattack abilities were removed to make room for abilities that were usable in both OT and MT positions.

Might as well make The Blackest Night not cost MP in exchange for not generating Dark Arts if you also want to remove Vengeance's counter attack damage...

[Ultimatecalibur]

Might as well make The Blackest Night not cost MP in exchange for not generating Dark Arts if you also want to remove Vengeance's counter attack damage...

TBN is pretty much the only way to do "counter attack" procs that maintains MT/OT dps balance due to the gain being on the mitigation side rather than the dps side. The damage dealt versus mp cost ratio is identical between TBN->DA+EoS and just using EoS by itself, but TBN->DA+EoS is a gain of 25% a party members hp in mitigation over just using EoS. I would actually like to see all 4 tanks get similar dps neutral mitigation gain counter mechanics in the future, but I also do not want Drk to loose this bit of uniqueness.

Vengence is an exceedingly minute dps increase (in a fair number of fights it wouldn't even increase dps at all) and the counter attack is mostly fluff to justify the name right now. SE could drop the counter attack and it wouldn't noticeably change Warrior dps.

[DRKoftheAzure]

TBN is pretty much the only way to do "counter attack" procs that maintains MT/OT dps balance due to the gain being on the mitigation side rather than the dps side. The damage dealt versus mp cost ratio is identical between TBN->DA+EoS and just using EoS by itself, but TBN->DA+EoS is a gain of 25% a party members hp in mitigation over just using EoS. I would actually like to see all 4 tanks get similar dps neutral mitigation gain counter mechanics in the future, but I also do not want Drk to loose this bit of uniqueness.

Mitigation gain is good but as everyone has proven that DPS and self/group healing is must have to clear any content with enrage timers. And with TBN being DPS Neutral at best and DPS loss at worst, the mitigation gain generally doesn't seem worth it, ESPECIALLY with the average player. If TBN was DPS Neutral at worst and DPS gain at best, then the mitigation gain would always be worth it, but it's not.

[Hierro]

Mitigation gain is good but as everyone has proven that DPS and self/group healing is must have to clear any content with enrage timers. And with TBN being DPS Neutral at best and DPS loss at worst, the mitigation gain generally doesn't seem worth it, ESPECIALLY with the average player. If TBN was DPS Neutral at worst and DPS gain at best, then the mitigation gain would always be worth it, but it's not.

There are a good number of issues with making TBN a DPS gain, such as how it'd encourage selfish play by potentially running into avoidable AoEs with vulnerability stacks as a consequences. This would make healers need to spend additional GCDs on healing, and that is already too big a DPS loss by whatever DRK might gain in the long run. It would also increase the discrepancy between skill floor and ceiling, when already there exist a good number of hurdles to separate the good from the mediocre.

I'm so baffled as to why you'd want TBN neutral at worst. You'd end up with a tank that is significantly tankier than the competition at no cost. Imagine, for half the time you have 25% more health than the rest of your peers, and FOR FREE. Is that balanced? Not in the slightest. Just git gud and learn to TBN for tank busters.

[DRKoftheAzure]

There are a good number of issues with making TBN a DPS gain, such as how it'd encourage selfish play by potentially running into avoidable AoEs with vulnerability stacks as a consequences. This would make healers need to spend additional GCDs on healing, and that is already too big a DPS loss by whatever DRK might gain in the long run. It would also increase the discrepancy between skill floor and ceiling, when already there exist a good number of hurdles to separate the good from the mediocre.

I'm so baffled as to why you'd want TBN neutral at worst. You'd end up with a tank that is significantly tankier than the competition at no cost. Imagine, for half the time you have 25% more health than the rest of your peers, and FOR FREE. Is that balanced? Not in the slightest. Just git gud and learn to TBN for tank busters.

If I actually thought DRK to be fun, I wouldn't be asking for TBN to neutral at worst if the devs do plan on keeping the sucky Shadowbringers DRK we have right now. And I would have been using TBN on Tankbusters anyway because I'm not THAT selfish. And I also would have also have asked to make the recast timer 5 seconds longer if people are going to use it like you just suggested though it might as well be 30 second recast at this rate...

[RadicalPesto]

Mitigation gain is good but as everyone has proven that DPS and self/group healing is must have to clear any content with enrage timers. And with TBN being DPS Neutral at best and DPS loss at worst, the mitigation gain generally doesn't seem worth it, ESPECIALLY with the average player. If TBN was DPS Neutral at worst and DPS gain at best, then the mitigation gain would always be worth it, but it's not.

Dark Knight has been in every world first group this expansion because of how strong its personal mitigation is. You're completely misunderstanding the importance of DPS vs. mitigation to claim mitigation is not relevant compared to DPS, when instead it's excess mitigation that isn't relevant compared to DPS. TBN helps provide an extremely solid baseline in terms of the mandatory mitigation every encounter or big pull requires, and making it a DPS gain will result in DPS optimization for DRK being based around bad play and deliberately being hit by AoEs.

TBN is the single best individual mitigation skill in the game. It doesn't need to be a DPS button.

[Awful]

Mitigation gain is good but as everyone has proven that DPS and self/group healing is must have to clear any content with enrage timers. And with TBN being DPS Neutral at best and DPS loss at worst, the mitigation gain generally doesn't seem worth it, ESPECIALLY with the average player. If TBN was DPS Neutral at worst and DPS gain at best, then the mitigation gain would always be worth it, but it's not.

Then you clearly dont know how to use TBN or you waste it, TBN lines up in almost every TB scenario so far this xpac, not to mention back in E4S you could Rampart + TBN to eat 1 Stonecrusher then use LD to eat the rest with the double tank stack mechanic trivializing it during MGR or Fault Line you easily had TBN if you were orange. Even during E5S every crippling blow there is TBN available and during thunderstorm if I so choose with Dark Mind, the mitigation on TBN is so strong and in the right hands is just amazing.

But mitigation isn't worth it though right?

[DRKoftheAzure]

Dark Knight has been in every world first group this expansion because of how strong its personal mitigation is. You're completely misunderstanding the importance of DPS vs. mitigation to claim mitigation is not relevant compared to DPS, when instead it's excess mitigation that isn't relevant compared to DPS. TBN helps provide an extremely solid baseline in terms of the mandatory mitigation every encounter or big pull requires, and making it a DPS gain will result in DPS optimization for DRK being based around bad play and deliberately being hit by AoEs.

TBN is the single best individual mitigation skill in the game. It doesn't need to be a DPS button.

Then you clearly dont know how to use TBN or you waste it, TBN lines up in almost every TB scenario so far this xpac, not to mention back in E4S you could Rampart + TBN to eat 1 Stonecrusher then use LD to eat the rest with the double tank stack mechanic trivializing it during MGR or Fault Line you easily had TBN if you were orange. Even during E5S every crippling blow there is TBN available and during thunderstorm if I so choose with Dark Mind, the mitigation on TBN is so strong and in the right hands is just amazing.

But mitigation isn't worth it though right?

If tankbusters were way more frequent, I would actually use TBN as the devs clearly intended, but because of how infrequent tankbusters tend to be, TBN just feels more like bloat along with Dark Mind... Though they did add re-worked TBN at the start of the expansion for the "Dark Arts spam replacement" which is probably the dumbest re-work the devs have ever done...

[Awful]

If tankbusters were way more frequent, I would actually use TBN as the devs clearly intended, but because of how infrequent tankbusters tend to be, TBN just feels more like bloat along with Dark Mind... Though they did add re-worked TBN at the start of the expansion for the "Dark Arts spam replacement" which is probably the dumbest re-work the devs have ever done...

You're joking right? Dark Mind and TBN aren't "bloat" they're literally one of the strongest mitigation CDs when stacked together, especially if the boss has magical TBs or Mid range AoE group damage, look at Ramuhs lightning AoEs they do 40-50k unmitigated on a non tank and you'll take about 25-30k on a tank Dark Mind is F R E E if you don't wanna use TBN.

We can also look back at old Eden Gate Savage fights (Been away for school so I'm just getting into Savage this tier), You have E2S TBs every 90 seconds that you can rotate Dark Mind, You have E1S lasers as well as using TBN on the Gravitational Waves to save your healers healing you after the fact, E3S Tsunami/single soak/TBs, E4S double fists/Earthen fury etc I could go on. It's not fluff these are core CDs for DRK that makes them stand out and isn't taken for granted you can use these in conjunction and it's one of the strongest combinations in the game. The fact you don't use TBN just makes me question if you just pull these things out of nowhere, I get you jumped ship to GNB which nothing wrong with that, but it's like if you never used Camouflage or HoS because it was "fluff" or Continuation because TBN is indeed a core mechanic just like your Gnashing combos are a necessity for GNB.

As for the Dark Arts spam that's subjective, if you liked that kind of play style that's totally fine same if you like Edge/Flood of Shadow, personally I like DRKs more contained burst combo but as pointed out in other threads I wish DRK evolved with their burst vs what Delirium is today. I don't mind it really and I love playing ShB DRK it's my 2nd fav with HW being my choice and SB being the option I'd avoid like the plague since that play style made me swap to unga-bunga WAR in SB.

[Lammas]

re-worked TBN at the start of the expansion for the "Dark Arts spam replacement" which is probably the dumbest re-work the devs have ever done...

Are you seriously trying to say that TBN giving you 50 blood back then was better than the cost neutral ogcd it is giving us now? I just.... what?