Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Avidria]

So.... Idk wtf happened here

But I'm here to say again that not being able to gauge my own performance, without dragging somebody with a parser to help me, is super freaking frustrating. For me personally it makes it hard to even stay motivated to do well, because my only method of feedback for it has to come from someone else, on their time. I can't track my own improvement, I can't see how I'm doing on a fight by fight basis in real time.

Guess I'm spoiled from a decade and a half of WoW. Always felt great seeing myself at or near the top of the meter on a team I knew was solid overall, and knowing I'd improved enough from where I started to be up there with them.

[Melichoir]

My interpretation of this might be off but i think the point james is trying to make is that despite that person having an horrible attitude people going below their level and basically publicly shaming them is not okay.
Go do your research and call them out but this was taken a step too far imo.

Not related to this incident anymore but if you resort to getting someone's parses to put them down as a player instead of picking their arguments apart then you're a petty person. Unfortunatly that happens in this forum quite a bit.

Again, if a person wades into a conversation acting like theyre in the know, are an expert, and are being all around jerkish to anyone who would dare question them and people find out they havent even set foot in that content (or that they perform extremely poorly in it), theyre to blame for the pushback people give them. A general rule of thumb is dont behave like a jackass when it comes to subject matter youre unfamiliar with. You should not be protected from people pushing back against your crass nature when they can take a look at your background and see that youre full of it particularly when youre the one who kicked up the dust in the first place.

If they came into the conversation and said "I dont use a parser and I think Im pretty good overall, though admittedly Ive never done expert/harder content. I dont appreciate parsing cause my experience with it has been over all negative due to x,y, and z" or something akin to that, people wouldnt be giving them a hard time. But that's not how they came in. They came in hard with a threat, doubled down, and acted as an authority on it. Dont join conversations if you arent ready to wrestle and be questioned, and be very well prepared for people to check your background to see if you at least have any level of experience talking about the subject. If you really dont want to be scrutinized and have your positions questioned, then dont comment. Because the frank truth is that contrary to popular belief people will not outright attack you if you come in fairly humbly and willing to discuss and listen to others in these forums. Very few people are popping out of their chairs ready to club someone for having the wrong opinion. People take exception when some one jumps into the conversation in an abrasive and controversial manner.

Frankly, I dunno where this idea that a person can come in and drop an opinion or thought and not be questioned or pushed back against came from. As I said, people are free to drop opinions, but if youre gonna join in, be ready to talk the talk and defend your positions. And really expect it if you come in like that guy did.

But in any case, thats enough about that from me.

[Shinklet]

If parsing is so good why is there no parsing 2

[Annihilism]

We gota get away from mentality that healong and tanking are hard im ff14 because it isn't. Anybody can master healing and tanking with some effort. From my experinces on this game its DPS jobs that are difficult to master for most people.

Anybody can pick up any DD job slap the boss around a few times and call it a day. But actually playing a DPS well takes work, the lazy people have always felt that DPS is the relaxing role which is incorrect. No matter what anyone says DPS is the most important contribution you can give in FF14, due mosrly in part in how the devs designed it.

I feel like I may rules the casuals in DPS but playing with pro DPS has opened my eyes to how weak the regular player is, no matter how well i perform my rotation. Everyone is so afarid to give advice because of this situation and it's sad. I much rather have a so called "Elitist" that run parsers call me out on my terrible play than deal with these toxic casuals that waste everyone's time in a game that we are trying to enjoy as a group.

Expert roulette means speed, savage means competence, either step up or stay in Limsa and stick to RPin ice mage and freeatyle sam on your own time.

[Urthdigger]

We gota get away from mentality that healong and tanking are hard im ff14 because it isn't. Anybody can master healing and tanking with some effort. From my experinces on this game its DPS jobs that are difficult to master for most people.

Anybody can pick up any DD job slap the boss around a few times and call it a day. But actually playing a DPS well takes work, the lazy people have always felt that DPS is the relaxing role which is incorrect. No matter what anyone says DPS is the most important contribution you can give in FF14, due mosrly in part in how the devs designed it.

I feel like I may rules the casuals in DPS but playing with pro DPS has opened my eyes to how weak the regular player is, no matter how well i perform my rotation. Everyone is so afarid to give advice because of this situation and it's sad. I much rather have a so called "Elitist" that run parsers call me out on my terrible play than deal with these toxic casuals that waste everyone's time in a game that we are trying to enjoy as a group.

Expert roulette means speed, savage means competence, either step up or stay in Limsa and stick to RPin ice mage and freeatyle sam on your own time.

Pretty much. I feel that healing and tanking are the easier classes to do well. I'm also one of the types that's picky about DPS performance, and feels that someone AFKing through the whole dungeon isn't fine if we're able to carry them anyway. But, I don't ask for much. I know if I refused to heal on healer, refused to use my tank stance on tank, or used WAY outdated gear on either, people would be throwing a fit because I would be playing at an insufficient level for the content. All I ask of my DPS is that they put in as much effort as the tank and healer need to, instead of expecting everyone else to cover for them.

[van_arn]

Pretty much. I feel that healing and tanking are the easier classes to do well. I'm also one of the types that's picky about DPS performance, and feels that someone AFKing through the whole dungeon isn't fine if we're able to carry them anyway. But, I don't ask for much. I know if I refused to heal on healer, refused to use my tank stance on tank, or used WAY outdated gear on either, people would be throwing a fit because I would be playing at an insufficient level for the content. All I ask of my DPS is that they put in as much effort as the tank and healer need to, instead of expecting everyone else to cover for them.

Tanking yes, healing depends entirely on the party and how many paste-eaters you're stuck in an instance with.

That said, DPS is the role with the most potential variation in just how much a player can personally can put into the fight. Some people will go full paste-eater, while others have the personal capacity to optimize to insane levels (which absolutely requires a parser.)

Perhaps a solo healer might have the potential to optimize to that degree, but we're talking about nonstandard compositions at that point.

The fault lies with the community in taking sandbagging DPS players through content, thus telling them everything is fine if they never try.

[QT_Melon]

Its not so much that those jobs are more difficult. Though I will disagree with healer because they get treated so badly depending on each party's philosophy. The problem is that there is just numerous DPS and just easily replaceable.

As long as you treat a class as disposable, don't be surprised you get a lot of garbage.

[Penthea]

We gota get away from mentality that healong and tanking are hard im ff14 because it isn't. Anybody can master healing and tanking with some effort. From my experinces on this game its DPS jobs that are difficult to master for most people.

I wouldn't say dps is harder than healing. It's just different.

I have met quite a few people who find the lack of a rotation to be a stressful thing, and this is why they gravitate towards more offensive roles. You can copy someone's dps rotation and still do okay enough damage, even if you don't understand it (disclaimer, I do not recommend this for savage). You won't be hitting any nice percentiles, but you'll be pulling -some- consistent weight. You can't do this with a healer because there is no rotation for support abilities. You either understand your class, or you don't. And if you don't it's usually very obvious pretty quickly.

Another different thing is unless you're in a situation where your team is barely meeting the dps check, one mistake in your rotation as a dps isn't likely to get someone killed. A healer making one mistake with a support ability can very quickly cause a wipe, and you don't even need to be in savage for this to happen. This is another thing I often encounter as a reason why some are afraid to heal.

Then there's the fact that if you happen to get a pug group that aren't good at avoiding things, your job as a healer can become quite difficult even outside of savage. For a dps, well whatever group you get your rotation doesn't really change much aside from choosing to do aoe or single target.

All this being said healers do get some nice downtime due to pacing of damage. If there isn't much damage going out, then they can dps and lets face it...all healer dps rotations are stupidly easy and super boring. So if the content is easy or the phase happens to have very little damage, healers can get some actual chill time in combat. Whereas for dps it's always the same. The rotation doesn't slow down. So you do need to be able to focus for far longer periods of time because you only get downtime when there is nothing to hit, and this is rare and usually very brief.

I did raid as a dps in WoW for quite a while, and I was very good at it. As a whole I didn't find it to be harder or easier than healing. Some stuff was harder, some was easier.

What was harder was needing to have seamless constant focus that could only lessen during a phase change IF the boss disappeared, unlike healing where the pacing of the damage easing up in any point of the fight gives you time to breathe. Related to this I also found I beat myself up more for mistakes in raid content because it could matter a lot, unlike dungeons where dps mistakes are usually easily overlooked. I also beat myself up if I mess up as a healer but if I manage to cover it up enough that no one notices, then no one really cares if we're all still alive and the boss still dies. Messing up your rotation only once as a dps may not kill another player, but it can change how your overall damage looks in the end and in certain environments this will not go unnoticed.

What was easier is that I generally only really had to watch out for what I was doing because I was mostly responsible for only my own well-being. As a healer you're responsible for the entire group's well-being, so you do have to watch as much as you can. I didn't have to care much for someone who was probably going to get hit by something because I couldn't do anything about it anyway, so why waste time focusing on it. It actually took some pressure off because I knew that as long as my dps was good, and I wasn't dying to avoidable damage, I was fine. As a healer you're expected to mop up other people's mistakes, to a degree, especially in progress. If your group has great healers, you can have longer pulls and get more experience learning mechanics.

Personally I think the roles are a bit too different to definitively say which one is harder or easier. I find dps harder to do not because I find the act of playing one more difficult, but because I'm too cautious to get every last scrap of damage out. I play things safely, which is good for a healer, but not always such a great thing for a dps. I have to force myself to take risks for more numbers, whereas for some people this comes naturally. The way I approach combat is better suited to a healer.

[testname]

Finally its officially translated
http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/t...78#post5293778

However, calculating another player’s DPS and posting that information online to shame them is clearly harassment and warrants a penalty. That would be an issue even before we consider whether using tools is allowed or not. Additionally, we often receive requests for an official damage calculation tool, but we would never implement one. The reason for this is because it may become the root of many disputes within the community.

For me its about harassment and not the tool. So lets keep a blind eye for next years. ( with official dps metter for savage, less and less people would use act, it would help, not harm )

[Videra]

DPS meters are simply a part of MMO gameplay and culture.

They are an abject necessity for optimal play in any regard, be it on a healer, a tank, or most of all - a damage dealer. The problem arises in that the games themselves do not teach optimal play, and rather leave the community to fend for itself. There are people who refuse to use the tools they can access, and as such - will never improve. This can come in the form of another player running ACT, and written works such as the guides on The Balance. FFXIV is not a difficult game to play almost correctly, with little optimizations proving more challenging class pending. There are also people who don't know these tools (ACT, External guides) exist until they're introduced to the former via a player shitting on them for their numbers instead of discussing the nature of the problem and trying to help. This -generally- leads to the "You don't pay my sub" mentality.

In short, parsers only state facts - and facts are never toxic. People are.