Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

[Melichoir]

...Sure you can see if someone's an Ice Mage or afk, but to see why someone doing mechanics and pressing most of the right buttons is still grey you need solid stats and information.

Exact Parser information is useful in two places - spotting extreme trouble spots that youre blind to, or cleaning up your rotations for min maxing. The truth is more that Knowing your proper rotation + doing mechanics is gonna net you a green or blue parse (if were referencing fflogs). The bar isnt that high, with a few exceptions where a specific class is hyper competitive. Speaking more broadly, when talking about the "We can tell when people are bad even with out a parser" we are referencing those Ice Mages or afkers who take the biggest exception to parsing. In savage content, you can bet your buns that if your team is failing DPS checks or hitting enrage that the veteran raiders will start looking very carefully at their fellow players. If they see a monk running all over the place, or noticing that there going longer periods without getting brotherhood than the CD is, theyre gonna know youre not doing something right and are contributing to the DPS failures. If they see tanks not properly CDing and getting hit way to hard for TBs, or getting vuln stacks that requires healers to heal more often, theyre gonna call out tanks. If theyre seeing healers hard casting healing way more often than what should be required, theyre gonna call out healers. At the higher tiers, it does become harder to tell who's flailing about, but at that tier either youre already parsing greens or better which most of this wouldnt apply to typically, or the veteran players will be paying attention enough to call you out on some of the smaller things.

Either way, the point still is you dont need a parser, even at higher levels, to see when people are slacking off or not cutting it. If youre doing your rotation right, avoiding damage, and completing mechanics, youre most likely hitting the required DPS to clear a savage unless your gear is lacking. And if the case is youre doing all the things right, you arent likely to be the one people are getting irritated at for concerns about DPS because you do not need purple and orange parses to clear savage.

[SamSmoot]

I do run ACT, sometimes, but I keep it hidden until the run is complete, then I analyze what I did right or wrong. Unfortunately, it's pretty much useless if there were no other players of the same class and ilevel in the group to compare against. The ONLY time I care about how another player did is if they're also NIN, and a similar item level, so I can get a comparison of how I'm doing relative to them. (It is a pain to find their item level though, since I never inspect other players in game.)

I'd love to have a built-in private parser that shows my performance and actions relative to an average of the last 50 runs by other players of my class and item level (+/-10) Let me view it at the end of the run if I want more data, or ignore it. Personally, I need to know how I'm doing relative to similar players. How else do I know if I need to improve or not?
Just show me the average DPS for the run, and a pie chart showing the damage by action. If I see all the higher DPS players using action X far more often than I do, then maybe I need to start doing the same.

[Hash_Browns]

That is the problem I have with adding them in game, people will use them in normal content to berate and harass other players. Making them readily available gives people the means to harass anyone at anytime. With the way it is now people have to care enough to install a third party tool, and they are not usually going to go through that much trouble to run it in DF content where hitting those numbers is really inconsequential. Some runs may take longer than others but my suggestion would be to not queue for roulettes if you are not prepared to spend more than the fastest run time on something.

You understand ACT is like 3-4 steps right?
It's not like people can't figure it out because it's complicated. The hardest thing about running ACT is choosing a skin, and where to place it on your screen. Hell, their are even programs that open ACT/Close ACT when you open/close FFXIV.

[Penthea]

If I was watching for all this stuff, (Assuming I could recognize other job's actions) I wouldn't contributing much to the group, since my full concentration is reserved for my actions and what the boss is doing.

You're now the second person who seems to think I said I was watching absolutely everything.

It was just a list of the sort of things you can spot without parsers. That's it. Nothing special.

[SturmChurro]

If I was watching for all this stuff instead of performing the fight, (Assuming I could recognize other job's actions) I wouldn't contributing much to the group, since my full concentration is reserved for my actions and what the boss is doing.
I do run ACT, sometimes, but I keep it hidden until the run is complete, then I analyze what I did right or wrong. Unfortunately, it's pretty much useless if there were no other players of the same class and ilevel to compare against.

I'd love to have a built-in private parser that shows performance and action distribution for the last 50 runs of other players of my class and item level (+/-10) Let me view it at the end of the run if I want more data, or ignore it. Personally, I need to know how I'm doing relative to similar players. How else do I know if I need to improve or not?

White mage is pretty simple. I just press 1 over and over and over and over and over, so it gives me a lot of time to think.

[Thamorian]

I have already commented on my initial statement coming off as harsher than I intended, but the truth remains the same. No one should be utilizing outside sources to comment on another person's performance. If these tools were integrated into the game. Have at it. Also, my most recent posts have elaborated on my stance and in my opinion have been reasonable discussing how this game presents content to the player and what they are expected.

At the end of the day, be clear about what you want. Be upfront in your parties and let people be. And actually, I DO play this game alone 90 percent of the time except for roulettes and clearing a normal raid or dungeon for the first time. And in that content, unless you are wiping consistently, NO ONE should be commenting on someone's DPS performance. Save it for your Savage and Ultimate parties YOU created, with CLEAR RULES and UPFRONT PERIMETERS.

What if I can see from the party list and animations you are playing poorly? What if, for example, I see all you are doing is hard casting Verthunder and Veraero and I don't see any fleche, contre sixta, swiftcast, melee combo or anything else you are supposed to be doing as a RDM? Not using a 3rd party tool, just seeing with my own eyes using in game resources that you are not play playing the job well. Can I comment on your play style then? You aren't gonna know if I am actually using a DPS meter or not, I could just say "Hey, you're only casting Verthunder. you want to..."

What if I make a Ex Trial farm party and I can see you are doing mechanics properly and not dying but same as above, but were not clearing and I see you are not playing your job properly, can I make comments then? Playing your job properly along with having up to date gear and not dying is what creates your DPS. DPS meters don't create these numbers from nothing. In group content that have DPS checks or enrage timer, your performance DOES affect the rest of the party. And if you are bringing unreasonably low DPS which causes the party to keep wiping to enrage timers, that is an issue.

As for your other comment, what am I gonna put in the PF for a farm party? "Bring high DPS" vs "Don't worry about what your DPS is" or "Low DPS is fine to join." Can't exactly say in game that you're using a parser to make sure overall DPS needed to clear the fight will be used. Even if I don't put anything in PF description other than "EX farm party", being able to do mechanics and bringing a reasonable/average amount of DPS is implied, enough DPS to clear the fight. Having enough DPS to clear a fight with an enrage timer IS a mechanic along with the ability to dodge AoEs and positioning yourself. The expectation to put "CLEAR RULES and UPFRONT PERIMETERS" with the way are putting it seems rather silly to me. You're right, SE hasn't put DPS meters in game, but there are still DPS requirements to meet DPS checks and enrage timers, which you obviously you know.

And if you join my party, I don't care that I don't pay your sub. You also aren't paying anyone elses either. The community is under no obligation to help you clear any content or carry you if dead weight. Joining other peoples parties is a privilege, not a right.

If a party can't clear content, and lets for arguments sake say everyone is doing mechanics perfectly each time and no one is dying, everyone but that one person doing average DPS but we keep hitting enrage, then we have 4 options that come to mind right away:
1) Disband, and maybe try to regroup, leaving you out and probably telling the other members that your DPS was terrible and reason they couldn't clear.
2) kick the low-performer who is pulling really low DPS and letting them know "Hey, your DPS is way to low and we carry your performance" and that might give you motivation to check to see if you are playing your job correct. You did say:

You are not paying for my subscription. You have no authority to dictate how I want to play or if I need to improve or not. End of the day. The game is designed a certain way without the use of damage meters. You should take the initiative to state VERY CLEARLY your requirements for a Savage Party or Ultimate party so people can choose whether or not to stay.

Also, I don't pay yours, so you have every right to not want to play with me. Personally, I wouldn't want to be in a party with you anyway since our game goals and motivations are obviously VERY different.

As for learning/clear parties, you have no right to be saying anything about anyone.

so why should I help you try and improve? Saying your DPS is low or that you need to improve your rotation might be implying that I am using a DPS meter. (Also if someone is telling you this in a rude and nasty way, you still have the option to report them for their language)
3) Kick the low performer without saying anything as to why, so they are left in confusion as to why they were kicked. (saying nothing to you because of your quote above)
4) Everyone stays but we also take a little extra time and try to help the low performer, letting them know what they are doing wrong and how to improve. (This is ideally what I would like to try and do if the party is willing to wait and the low-performer is receptive and it is what I have done so in the past when able)

If we had someone with an attitude like yours in the party, then we only have 2 options, disband or kick you without saying anything. And there is probably no one who is going to want to help you improve. Now as I said to your original comment, I don't know what your DPS is and if you are actually good at playing your job, good for you. The above stated is just for example.

I agree with SE in that DPS meters should officially NOT be allowed, but at the same time, I do appreciate them turning a blind eye to people that still use them as long as they aren't toxic with it. I agree with others in that SE should implement a personal DPS meter that only reports your own numbers that only you can see. As for PS4 players currently, they can check if someone else in the party is paring and ask to let them know how they are doing. If PS4 players want to get a bit advanced, there are ways to hook your pS4 to your computer and have the computer parse while you play on PS4. That's more complicated than I care to explain here though.

[Hash_Browns]

If I was watching for all this stuff instead of performing the fight, (Assuming I could recognize other job's actions) I wouldn't contributing much to the group, since my full concentration is reserved for my actions and what the boss is doing.
I do run ACT, sometimes, but I keep it hidden until the run is complete, then I analyze what I did right or wrong. Unfortunately, it's pretty much useless if there were no other players of the same class and ilevel to compare against.

I'd love to have a built-in private parser that shows my performance and actions relative to an average of the last 50 runs by other players of my class and item level (+/-10) Let me view it at the end of the run if I want more data, or ignore it. Personally, I need to know how I'm doing relative to similar players. How else do I know if I need to improve or not?

I'm going to suggest XIVAnalysis to you. It's a really good tool to tell you how to play more optimally. If you have ever uploaded a run, you can take the link from that run, select your character, and it will tell you the mistakes you made, broken combos, over-capping on job gauges, etc.

ACT also has settings to only target yourself if you are running it, so you don't really need to hide it. (although, it does have some glitches, sometimes anyone who heals will appear on your list with 0 DPS, since you aren't actively tracking them. Just keep it in mind that if you track only yourself, you need to make sure to have room to track others still, since others might appear.)

DPS isn't really the thing you should be monitoring. DPS loss is a direct result of mistakes, so you should be figuring out your mistakes, which is why I recommend XIVAnalysis.

[SamSmoot]

That is the problem I have with adding them in game, people will use them in normal content to berate and harass other players. Making them readily available gives people the means to harass anyone at anytime. With the way it is now people have to care enough to install a third party tool, and they are not usually going to go through that much trouble to run it in DF content where hitting those numbers is really inconsequential. Some runs may take longer than others but my suggestion would be to not queue for roulettes if you are not prepared to spend more than the fastest run time on something.

That's why you make it completely anonymous..Compare yourself only against other players of the same class who have run the same dungeon earlier, and only after the run is over.
I suppose you could have it reveal your relative performance during the fight as a simple number, since it wouldn't be comparing you against anyone in your group. If I saw that I was 49th in DPS of the last 50 Ninjas with my item level to run the same fight, maybe I should try harder, or get some sleep and try later

[Senn]

...

Sieya kind of has a point. I want ACT, but it seems like a pain to install. Well, there's also the fact that it's kind of in a grey area in regards to the rules, so I'm too wary to install it.

I'd love to have a built-in private parser that shows my performance and actions relative to an average of the last 50 runs by other players of my class and item level (+/-10) Let me view it at the end of the run if I want more data, or ignore it.

Showing the average sounds ok.

[Hash_Browns]

Sieya kind of has a point. I want ACT, but it seems like a pain to install. Well, there's also the fact that it's kind of in a grey area in regards to the rules, so I'm too wary to install it.

ACT is in a grey area because they don't want to encourage harassment.
If you install ACT, use it, and don't actively sport your numbers, or attack people for having low numbers - you are fine.

I don't think SE cares about people running ACT. I think SE cares about:

1) people getting kicked for low numbers/harassed for low numbers
2) Actively supporting a third party program

As far as installing it, I don't personally think it's complicated. If you need a guide and actually want to install it, it's like 5 minutes of a tutorial.