Concerning recent developments of third party addons, and SE's DADT stance

[KageTokage]

As for official leaderboards, I have a feeling it has to be along the same lines as why he doesn't want to make speedrunning boards either. He knows people hack and cheat and would undermine the legitimacy of the rankings.

The fact that they're making the Ishgard Restoration have a leaderboard makes me really, really hope they considered how many people are going to abuse the heck out of it with bots if they didn't take any countermeasures.

[Rufalus]

Hmm. Almost every mechanic in the game is a movement mechanic. You are given some kind of visual information like symbols/icons that you need to learn how to interpret to know where you should stand for the next mechanic. If an addon always shows you where to stand in advance then it's getting close to playing itself and turning high-end pve content into training dummy fights; you only need to pay attention to your attack rotation. Every videogame seems to end up this way. If anti-cheat software is effective then I think it's mandatory to have this. They have to know what programs the user is running on PC since people will always break terms of service if given the opportunity.

[ForteNightshade]

I do believe that anything other than seeing your numbers should be punished and that imo includes call outs too. It should be enough to see how much your party does anything else is just helping you and making it easier which gives you an advantage over all of those that cant use such a tool. Honestly I find it kinda funny how the post on reddit was done by a person who themselves post about doing triggers and having call outs..

In the end SE should introduce a simple "parser" into savage content so that everyone (including PS4 players) can see the numbers and anyone that is using something outside the game should then be punished. Because even if you have to create the triggers yourself first, they are still an advantage because a machine wont make mistakes..a real person can fail. So imo this is already making the fight easier..funny when those very same people want to have a challenge.

So showing numbers is fine (people need to know where they lack) but anything more is imo already going into the cheating category for me.

While I agree SE should develop an alternate. PC players already using ACT aren't going to switch to a simplified version of what they already have, especially when it'll likely be far inferior. I highly doubt SE would include things like raid DPS, overhealing and such. The sheer amount of information current parses allow is quite extensive. And then you have to consider FFlogs, arguably the main reason people care about damage meters. Without it, Savage serves zero purpose beyond a gear wall for those interest in Ultimate. What keeps many people raiding is pursuing better results on FFlogs even if they're only competitive with themselves. My first static was comprised of people who had never raided before, myself included, but we still enjoyed beating our scores. It gave us a continuous goal. Therefore, SE would also need an equivalent.

As for triggers. Yes, a person can make mistakes but how often does that occur? Very seldom are dedicated shot callers going to mess up call outs otherwise they wouldn't be calling mechanics. In my TEA group, our WAR does all of them and I think he's messed up once. Ironically, ACT has crashed more often than he's wrong. Personally, I think triggers are fine if people want to use them. I prefer learning mechanics myself but to each their own. The key difference between a trigger and the gif going around now is you still have to perform the mechanic. ACT calling out Quietus simply reminds you of the pattern but you still have to execute it. That plugin would replace the call out with visual aids highlighting exactly where to stand to avoid In/Out/Spread.

I think that's a pretty significant difference.

The plug-in will be the first must have plug-in statics are going to hard enforce since the QoL is so huge.

This will never happen. Take the Gaol plugin for UwU. If you had PS4 players, people simply gave them the guaranteed spots (first and last). Maybe at the highest possible level you'll see an increased demand for third party programs but, really, how many groups are going for World First? And to be fair, these are groups with extremely high demands already. You're expected to take time off work/school, have set meals and sleep schedules. Basically, a plugin is probably the least demanding aspect. So it's a moot point.

[AngelCheese77]

Over time, addons have become increasingly capable. While I realize that there's a crowd, probably a fair few who lurk on these forums especially, that would be all to happy to let SE drop the ban hammer, that's not a realistic option when the game client lacks certain basic functionalities that are needed for certain content.

SE, once - well over half a decade ago now - you promised us addon support directly in the ARR client. Providing us this means you can also draw the line on just how capable they are, and prevent stuff like that has come out in recent developments. Both turning a blind eye to recent capabilities of addons, but also strongly enforcing a ban of all addons, both would - at least in my opinion - be grave mistakes for the game long term. I hope you will, once more, consider adding official addon support so these can exist without becoming too powerful.

Please consider this before pandora's box can't be closed again.

Personally I have no issues with parsers, as long as the data is kept to the person using it, OR if I was to ask to know. What causes issues is when the user of the parser uses that data to troll or harasses others in a group.

In regards to addon support from SE, I've come to terms that companies change their minds. Remember, they see things we don't, but also they don't always communicate their thoughts and decisions. For all we know, they decided that addons were too difficult to do, or that if they put them in, it was too much of a security risk.

Nonetheless, very recently an addon was developed that - even by the standards of people who regularly use parsers and so on - I think most would consider to be outright cheating. Nothing is needed to run some of these other than the basic framework/access that parsers provide.

I mention this particularly because this particular addon is powerful enough it might actually get an official response from SE. I'm hoping that response will be wise, and not knee jerk.

If there is such an addon, I would suggest reporting it to SE if you are concerned that people are using it to cheat in the game. You can go to https://support.na.square-enix.com/c...p?id=5382&la=1 and put in the necessary information.

[MrKusakabe]

Ultimately, what has resulted from the widespread, ultimately, accepted use of parses and action warnings, is an impact on the difficulty of savage or ultimate. Thus resulting in more handicaps added to your already handicapped version of the game.
Play the game as it's intended. Turn off your ay see tee and try and play like a real gamer.

I was strongly against parsers for quite a while but now I'd like to have a built-in one. The reason is simple: The game is giving me those numbers already. I could sit down now, with a notepad and pencil, and write down the battle log, with a bunch of calculators, and do the same as any parser. But unfortunately, I am actually required to use my two hands to press buttons. So all the information is literally on-screen but disappearing or scrolling away so fast - why not having an assistant that does that noting and calculating for me?

"Turning off [such tools] to be a real gamer" is like saying: Put a towel over your dashboard because if you can't guess your speed, you are not a real driver. Now try to see if you are above the speed limit [fine damage] or a traffic-blocking lane hogger [underperforming].

Sincerely,

[EaMett]

My main concern here is that SE's has been remaining vague on what is acceptable and what isn't by "not allowing any third party tool" yet tolerating some that are quite frankly required to enhance your performance in order to be able to clear some content.
This results in the line between what is tolerated and what is "cheating" to be incredibly blurred. Generally speaking, callouts are just an audible counterpart to visual queues in game. Not a bit deal. But what if those callouts can literally void some mechanics like Perfect Alex alpha and beta? What if the "callouts" are now visual telegraphs of untelegraphed attacks?
We need some guidance and clarification here.

Also, regarding this latest add-on. From what I've seen it' isn't all that useful. Limit cut is easy enough to do without telegraphs and proteans seem pretty useless as well since the timings and placements are pretty tight to start with. But still it begs the question of how far is too far.

[JunseiKei]

My main concern here is that SE's has been remaining vague on what is acceptable and what isn't by "not allowing any third party tool" yet tolerating some that are quite frankly required to enhance your performance in order to be able to clear some content.
This results in the line between what is tolerated and what is "cheating" to be incredibly blurred. Generally speaking, callouts are just an audible counterpart to visual queues in game. Not a bit deal. But what if those callouts can literally void some mechanics like Perfect Alex alpha and beta? What if the "callouts" are now visual telegraphs of untelegraphed attacks?
We need some guidance and clarification here.

Also, regarding this latest add-on. From what I've seen it' isn't all that useful. Limit cut is easy enough to do without telegraphs and proteans seem pretty useless as well since the timings and placements are pretty tight to start with. But still it begs the question of how far is too far.

The thing is, SE has provided an opinion on them. It's in the ToS - third party programs are a reportable offense that can lead to the termination of your account. However, they also turn a blind eye to users because it's a don't ask, don't tell policy. Basically, don't lead on to the fact that you are using a parser and you'll never have to worry about being reported (or don't be an absolute moron and demean someone on stream, especially if you have a large following).

It's never been vague. Player opinions have "blurred" SE's official stance. Mob mentality has overtaken a rule that you can read for yourself.

[EaMett]

It's never been vague. Player opinions have "blurred" SE's official stance. Mob mentality has overtaken a rule that you can read for yourself.

SE provides content that needs party optimization and player optimization to clear yet have not provided any tools for players to do so. On multiple occasions there have been mentions of third party tools and talk (from yoshiP himself) around how some were benign enough and that it wasn't worth pursuing, especially with the PC mod culture.
The fact that parsers and mods themselves don't get you banned (imagine all the influencers streaming their parsers or ig mods getting banned) just shows their stance towards it.
YoshiP's grief with parsers specifically has never been about using them, it's been about sharing the information unwarranted. And THAT is a bannable offense.

So it isn't just mob mentality taking over and ignoring what's written down in the TOS (which is a set of rules that purposfully overreaches in order to give the moderators enough freedom to act within their discretion) . It's now 6 years worth of historical dialogue between the team and the players being measured for what it is actually worth in practice and asking for a decent solution to be found. SSS is not it.

[JunseiKei]

SE provides content that needs party optimization and player optimization to clear yet have not provided any tools for players to do so. On multiple occasions there have been mentions of third party tools and talk (from yoshiP himself) around how some were benign enough and that it wasn't worth pursuing, especially with the PC mod culture.
The fact that parsers and mods themselves don't get you banned (imagine all the influencers streaming their parsers or ig mods getting banned) just shows their stance towards it.
YoshiP's grief with parsers specifically has never been about using them, it's been about sharing the information unwarranted. And THAT is a bannable offense.

So it isn't just mob mentality taking over and ignoring what's written down in the TOS (which is a set of rules that purposfully overreaches in order to give the moderators enough freedom to act within their discretion) . It's now 6 years worth of historical dialogue between the team and the players being measured for what it is actually worth in practice and asking for a decent solution to be found. SSS is not it.

A lot of content doesn't need party optimization, but there are tons of players out there that simply enjoy min-maxing as much as possible. Even with mods, the official stance is don't use them (modification of files), but the shaders have gone on record to be okay.

The thing is, they can get you banned - again, don't ask, don't tell is in effect - but most people that use them are smart enough to not mention them in game. I wonder why that is. Oh, right, because you run the risk of disciplinary action. That's also what made Arthar's case odd as it was disciplinary action taken from evidence outside of the game. What you're telling me is you're completely fine babbling on about information gleaned from a third party program and you have no need to worry. We both know that is not the case and why people won't even mention the programs by name here.

It is mob mentality when misinformed players tell others "parsers are fine and not against the rules" and someone more naive takes that player's view as the rule, then gets reported and can't understand why when someone else told them it was completely okay. It's like the sheer amount of people that can't tell the difference between "your" and "you're" and tell others it's one way or another, but it doesn't make them right. It's just the spread of misinformation.

Too many people act like this game is completely unplayable at "high level" with the "provided tools."

You can have your opinion and stance, but the company and their stance is wholly different. Please acknowledge and separate the two.

[Elladie]

Please just leave this discussion if you are off topic. This is about the add on both you and I disagree with.

Please stop. You are doing more harm than good here. I am very much against parsers being included in the game by SE as I firmly believe they would used to harass people. But if individuals use them now and keep quiet about it, Yoshida has said himself that is okay. You have been attacking these raiders who use parsers throughout your posts. But suddenly you're telling Hyomin to stick to the topic when you haven't stuck to it yourself?

You've been aggressive and unpleasant throughout, and you're really not doing your argument - that parsers should be banned because they're toxic - any favours because YOU clearly don't need a parser at all to be toxic