The Reason Zenos.

[Razard]

If I were the guy at SE making the decision, I'd have really wanted it to be Emet-Selch ... and then realized it couldn't be, because he's still kind of considered a spoiler. At least he would be in marketing.

Unfortunatly you also have to look at character diversity as well as gameplay diversity in a fighting game. And Emets niche, Dark Sorceror, is already filled in spades with Dissidia. Like Emporer, Golbez, Kefka, Ultimecia, Kuja and Maybe Exdeath. Heck even Ardyn has the "flippant, charming main villain who may help the party but comes to an impasse and has to fight the main protagonist" character down.

[Nucah]

I've thought this ever since they introduced Zenos. He is just not a compelling villain to me (at all) and his motivation is very weak writing in my opinion and I just can't get into him as a villain.

I really thought Nidhogg and Emet were great villains. I knew and understood their motives, they were written very well and I felt for them too and could see their side of the story.

It drove me nuts how Zeno's just offed himself in 4.0, because I think that's just a weak cop-out. When he came back I was annoyed but thought for sure we would kill him at the end of 5.0 but nope, he's still around and it drove me nuts how we "lost" to him in the end and I'm not into him being a main villain at all as we head through 5.0 and into 6.0.

My only hope is that he gets made out to be a total pawn in the Elidibus and Zodiark scheme and that he just does right away in 6.0 just to get him out of the way.

It's hard to get excited about Zeno's as a villain when you've had Nidhogg and Emet. I really hope that they can give us a compelling villain again and get off this Zeno's story arc.

[Berteaux_Braumegain]

Weren't those plot bits brought in later, in Crisis Core though? I still prefer him over Zenos, since he at least had goals and plans other than self-entertainment, but I do agree with the guy above... he was kinda flat (akin to Zenos) in the OG game.

No, everything I mentioned was from the original VII.

The part with Zack is sorta Crisis Core-y, I suppose, but even in the original that dialogue happened. It's just that Cloud superimposed himself over Zack in the flashback.

[DPZ2]

I would think that the reason some players do not see Zenos as a good villain is that they find absolutely no way to relate to him. He's not a tragic figure, he doesn't have a back-story of hardship and woe. He is not noble and true.

What is forgotten here? Zenos has a family with a peculiar background. The old emperor appears to have encouraged his upbringing (and don't tell me no one noticed as Zenos grew up). He appears to have some of the same characteristics as his grandfather, or else we would not have seen him past the 4.0 storyline.

Zenos is an enigma to the Warrior of Light. And that can be frustrating.

[Nezerius]

I mean, what's with the sudden change of view on Zenos all of a sudden?

It's likely that people were expecting some form of character development for him, between the end of the 4.0 MSQ and whenever he'd get reintroduced (the whole soul jumping from body to body journey).
Unfortunately, the journey didn't really develop his character and he went right back to the simple mindset of "Must. Fight. WoL"

[Sophie_Lo]

Although I can somewhat agree on many of the cons pointed out against Zenos in this thread, I still rather enjoy him, especially his twisted version of honor when it comes to battle, and his pure lust for locking swords with a foe that can match him. Personally, I think with future content, we will see so much more to him, his story and background, and hopefully, depth. *fingers crossed*

[Gemina]

I've thought this ever since they introduced Zenos. He is just not a compelling villain to me (at all) and his motivation is very weak writing in my opinion and I just can't get into him as a villain.

I really thought Nidhogg and Emet were great villains. I knew and understood their motives, they were written very well and I felt for them too and could see their side of the story.

It drove me nuts how Zeno's just offed himself in 4.0, because I think that's just a weak cop-out. When he came back I was annoyed but thought for sure we would kill him at the end of 5.0 but nope, he's still around and it drove me nuts how we "lost" to him in the end and I'm not into him being a main villain at all as we head through 5.0 and into 6.0.

My only hope is that he gets made out to be a total pawn in the Elidibus and Zodiark scheme and that he just does right away in 6.0 just to get him out of the way.

It's hard to get excited about Zeno's as a villain when you've had Nidhogg and Emet. I really hope that they can give us a compelling villain again and get off this Zeno's story arc.

Would you like to know about another villain who has no rhyme or reason to what he does? The Joker. And he is rated the number one villain of all time on many, many, many platforms (and even if he isn't, he's always top 5). While there have been many iterations and imaginations of the Joker, the main thing that drives any of them is giving the Batman a bad day. That's it.

Even if we want to stay in the FF universe, Kefka is the villain I'll turn to. One of SE's best and most memorable villains ever; also had no rhyme or reason to what he does. We only learn that he was driven mad from the mako infusion experiments. Otherwise he is just nihilist, hell bent on destroying all life because he simply cannot comprehend the purpose of it. We never got an extensive background to Kefka. As a matter of fact, we have more on Zenos than we do him.

I am not saying Zenos is a great villain like the Joker or Kefka, but what I am saying is that villains don't always need these drawn out, elaborate upcomings to be understood. But we do need to know what motivates them into action, and we have that with Zenos. If you don't like that he is a polar opposite to the WoL and arch nemesis, then I don't know what to tell you. That's what he is. To come out now with some kind of sob story where his mother abandoned him or some crap would just be silly and actually be a disservice to his character.

Zenos also finished himself off more so than just offed himself. He was already dying from his injuries sustained during the battle over the Menagerie. The true cop out, was that he made the decision to fuse himself with a primal. This right here is what I would find to be a valid reason for Zenos to fall out of favor with so many, and I've only seen a select few mention it.

In short, it doesn't surprise me that the same people who dislike Zenos strongly favor Nidhogg and Emet. They are two entirely different tropes of villain, and I find the latter to be far easier to write. I want a villain to make me hate them in a good way, not sympathize with them. Thordan, Livia, Ilberd, Lord Zephiren (the HW knight that struck down Haurchefant), and that lower than a rat brother of Yotsuyu was quickly headed in that direction as well. I HATED them. There's no sympathy, no reasoning, nothing relatable. It wasn't about stopping what they were planning to do; it was about hunting them down to serve them due justice for what they've already done. These are characters my character specifically targeted for death, and I love them for it.

If Zenos had actually killed Y'shtola at the Reach; believe me, everyone would be whistling a different tune about him now. The issue I have with Zenos is he really hasn't don't anything to make us really hate him other than hand us an arsewhooping, twice. We will see what the devs cook up, but yeah, if the devs want to make us really hate him; he is probably going to have to kill someone of great significance at some point. And they can't just bring in someone for him to kill. Haurchefant's death was so effective because his presence carried over two expansions, and he was fundamentally important to HW's story. Needs to be someone on that level.

[Nucah]

Would you like to know about another villain who has no rhyme or reason to what he does? The Joker. And he is rated the number one villain of all time on many, many, many platforms (and even if he isn't, he's always top 5). While there have been many iterations and imaginations of the Joker, the main thing that drives any of them is giving the Batman a bad day. That's it.

Even if we want to stay in the FF universe, Kefka is the villain I'll turn to. One of SE's best and most memorable villains ever; also had no rhyme or reason to what he does. We only learn that he was driven mad from the mako infusion experiments. Otherwise he is just nihilist, hell bent on destroying all life because he simply cannot comprehend the purpose of it. We never got an extensive background to Kefka. As a matter of fact, we have more on Zenos than we do him.

What's interesting about this is that I love the Joker and Kefka is my favorite villain of all time. They are both but jobs, just like Zeno's but this ties back to my point about Zenos just not being well written period. It's not like you get a ton of backstory on Kefka either. We know he was experimented on with Espers and that turned him nuts but it's his presence during the game where we interact with him that is written much better than Zenos. I found Kefka super compelling and the same with the Joker. I don't find Zenos compelling at all.

I understand what kind of a character Zenos is. His type of villain is just not my personal cup of tea.

[Vulcwen]

What's interesting about this is that I love the Joker and Kefka is my favorite villain of all time. They are both but jobs, just like Zeno's but this ties back to my point about Zenos just not being well written period. It's not like you get a ton of backstory on Kefka either. We know he was experimented on with Espers and that turned him nuts but it's his presence during the game where we interact with him that is written much better than Zenos. I found Kefka super compelling and the same with the Joker. I don't find Zenos compelling at all.

I understand what kind of a character Zenos is. His type of villain is just not my personal cup of tea.

Zenos just gets bored of everything and has absolutely no sense of humor at all. If he enjoys something, it's out of lust, not humor. Kefka and the joker do have a sense of humor, even though it's twisted, but I think that's a major distinction.
People want to see simple villains have fun when they succeed, which Zenos never did. Zenos actually shows having fun when he's losing, which actually undermines the satisfaction you can get for the protagonist succeeding at stopping such a villain.

[Gemina]

What's interesting about this is that I love the Joker and Kefka is my favorite villain of all time. They are both but jobs, just like Zeno's but this ties back to my point about Zenos just not being well written period. It's not like you get a ton of backstory on Kefka either. We know he was experimented on with Espers and that turned him nuts but it's his presence during the game where we interact with him that is written much better than Zenos. I found Kefka super compelling and the same with the Joker. I don't find Zenos compelling at all.

I understand what kind of a character Zenos is. His type of villain is just not my personal cup of tea.

Again, Zenos hasn't really done anything on their level. Something to really inflict an emotional blow and the WoL other than a couple humbling encounters. The Joker: He's killed countless, but killing Robin and permanently putting Barbara Gordon in a wheelchair took the cake. Kefka: Sure, he almost killed every living thing on the planet. But General Leo.... man... And just the way it came to pass. Then when the Esper gate breaks open, and they can't do anything to him. He just rips their magicite so effortlessly; and he won't die. Instead only gets more powerful. To the point of his apotheosis. Both of these villains just commit atrocity after atrocity, and neither are fueled by a sob story.

Zenos at this point should have already done something on par with these guys. He has done some bad things, but nothing on a grand scale. The worst was probably having Fordola fire upon their own troops. However, being benched for the latter half of SB didn't do him any good, and when he finally does hop into action to get his body back, his efforts actually help thwart the Ascians plans. But it isn't anything new for a villain to take down other bad guys who threaten to deprive them of their victory over the protagonist.

It's understandable if the type of villain Zenos is isn't a favored flavor, but at least you admit that. I don't think he was written badly so much as I think some fundamental mistakes were made with him. What he does still have going for him right now is a threat level, because he has been so good at leaving a path of destruction wherever he roams. As I said before, giving him a sob story now would still have him be out of favor with those who already don't care much for him, but also those who are team Zenos right now. He needs to be more like.. well, Zenos. An insatiable killer. Someone who antagonizes the WoL. Not, "Hey, WoL. Me. You. Epic battle of untold proportions."